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Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

does anyone still do that?


yes. also portsmouth-bilboa. You can do a P&O or Brittany mini-cruise which is three days to bilboa. 8 hours on land either way, the rest at sea. I got paid to buy someone a load of duty free fags last time cos he'd used up his allowance.
 
yes. also portsmouth-bilboa. You can do a P&O or Brittany mini-cruise which is three days to bilboa. 8 hours on land either way, the rest at sea. I got paid to buy someone a load of duty free fags last time cos he'd used up his allowance.

Sounds like a lot of effort!
 
I have always been in favour of increased regionalism (I wrote my dissertation at University about it), because I would like to see decentralization away from Westminster because it is a rotten cesspit. I'd like to see Northern regions start to plan as a region and maybe develop some kind of regional identity. Real democracy has always seemed much more possible on a smaller scale.

Such potential fascinates me, but I firmly believe that it can be even more of a dangerous cesspit if certain things are not put in place first.

I think its vital that genuine transparency and accountability are enshrined in the local thing from the get-go, because the corrupting imbalances of power and lack of accountability can be easier for people to harness locally.

Examples include the unfair influence of rich locals, people well-connected locally, people who can slip decisions through in a corrupt way, and in extreme cases people who can put enough muscle on the streets (either in overtly dodgy ways or via the 'local sheriff') or engage in other forms of intimidation. Also people or family dynasties that become entrenched over long periods and come to view their position within the local corridors of power as a given. Not to mention the side-effects of economic over-reliance on a few industries/companies in the area.

Devolving power to the county level can also cause issues, especially if there is disparity between different parts of the county. Here in Warwickshire there is something of a north-south divide for example, with the leafy Warwick decision-making centre often out of touch with the large population & high deprivation levels of some of Warwickshires northern towns.

Having said all that, I share your favouritism of the power of local decisions. But not as something that we simply evolve towards without a lot of other changes to our society and its structures coming into play at the same time. At a minimum, you absolutely have to get a sizeable proportion of the local populace in all areas to engage with the decision making process, which can be a challenge due to the mundane nature of much daily local business. And we would absolutely have to have a much more effective local press, that relies on proper investigative journalism and not simply rewording of press releases that come from local government, police, businesses etc.

Much of this ties into my interest in the long-term potential of the internet. Without careful attention to these and other related issues such as local organised crime, the people's democratic network of streets ( ;) ) is going to feel like a bit of a stifling prison from very early on. Right now, from the relative safety of my bedroom, it is actually far easier for me to study and be vigilant about both historical and contemporary events on the national and international level than the local level. Information on the local level is often stunningly poor.

To put it another way, there are some 'accepted universal human rights' on a global level which help enshrine peoples safety and freedom in their daily, local lives. So we aren't just looking at having to put safeguards in place locally, but the entire way humans manage everything on every level, from the hyper-local to the global, and crucially the manner in which these levels interconnect. Decent foundations must be built on all these scales of human order for the local stuff to thrive.
 
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to see whales. Actual whales in the sea.

its all good if you turn it into a mini holiday. Last time I got to see whales. Actual whales in the sea. Plus- whisky tasting. A sample from every bottle, buying none. Jobs a good un. You meet all sorts as well. It's fun, and profitable.

Sounds good. But boycotting whisky, if YES. And oats.
 
What's your point please caller?
That you attempted - and failed - to create an impression of your specialist expertise in the sort of european law that was directly relevant here in order to lend authority to your question begging assertions - when it turn outs that you're just the teaboy measuring bent bananas.
 
Not literal barriers. Many Western European borders are effectively open these days. You don't even notice crossing from Holland into Germany. It would be like that.

Not gone from Spain to the GiB then back again , perhaps ..?

What happens when the tax differential becomes worthwhile for commodity trafficking ? ...dunno in which direction , but its something that won't be tolerated for long ?
 
That you attempted - and failed - to create an impression of your specialist expertise in the sort of european law that was directly relevant here in order to lend authority to your question begging assertions - when it turn outs that you're just the teaboy measuring bent bananas.

That's a pretty crude misrepresentation but you run with it if you like.

What do I know having spent the last few years working in the EU law departments of various city law firms...
 
I'll be £960 richer (and not £200 poorer - I just put £200 on at 3.8/1). :p I think that's only the 3rd bet I've ever placed in my life.

Not sure what surprises me more. How just... 'right' everyone and everything 'Yes' is (even if you disagree with their argument/idyll (which I probably do tbh - I like the UK as it is :cool:)) or the odds.

I do think the Yes's will be more encouraged to actually turn up at the ballot box and maybe will sneak it.

Fair fucks to them I say :thumbs:
 
That's a pretty crude misrepresentation but you run with it if you like.

What do I know having spent the last few years working in the EU law departments of various city law firms...
Measuring them nanas. I guess you must be right when you assert that something is def legal fact and then go onto to say that there is no legal precedent in the next breath. And no, you don't get to try and play that trick again. Make an argument based on your experience/knowledge backed up by facts that you can point to and others can access not waving bananas and your secret insider knowledge (this is your area of specialist expertise right?) in peoples face.
 
Measuring them nanas. I guess you must be right when you assert that something is def legal fact and then go onto to say that there is no legal precedent in the next breath. And no, you don't get to try and play that trick again. Make an argument based on your experience/knowledge backed up by facts that you can point to and others can access not waving bananas and your secret insider knowledge (this is your area of specialist expertise right?) in peoples face.

I was actually discussing two related but separate points there - (i) EU exit and (ii) EU readmission following exit.

But nevermind with all that precision. Barrel on with your ad hominem attacks...
 
I was actually discussing two related but separate points there - (i) EU exit and (ii) EU readmission following exit.

But nevermind with all that precision. Barrel on with your ad hominem attacks...
Yes, and you tried to use you area of nana expertise to assert a question begging scenario (independence legally means direct eu exit - don't question me i'm a specialist) - which you followed up by letting slip that as there is no precedent this fact is pulled out of your arse/contested. Then you suggested that due to your and your companies vast nana experience there are no competing views than your own. I provided you with two pretty high level ones. Both have been ignored. So yeah, barrel on.
 
10499561_687159524701025_4274878112218854617_o.jpg


Good news, everyone. You can call off the referendum. BAE Systems have doubts, and you might not be able to get B&Q drill bits so easily.

Also the Danish foreign minister says it's a bad idea. Twice.
 
Ah, right for a second there butchers I thought your banana references were to the seminal 1978 case of United Brands but now I realise your more or less total ignorance of EU law by referring to product regulation, which for some reason zealots of all persuasions in the UK use as a bizarre signifier for the acquis communaire...

To further underline that you have little to no idea of what you are talking about there has been precedent for EU exit (although it was then the EEC and governed by a very different set of treaties so this point is arguable to a degree) with Greenland in 1985.

What there is definitely not any kind of precedent for is EU exit (through secession from an MS or any other fashion) and then readmission.

That is exactly why the EU line is that Scotland would have to apply as a new MS.
 
Ah, right for a second I thought your banana references were to the seminal 1978 case of United Brands but now I realise your more or less total ignorance of EU law by referring to product regulation, which for some reason zealots of all persuasions in the UK use as a bizarre signifier for the acquis communaire...

To further underline that you have little to no idea of what you are talking about there has been precedent for EU exit (although it was then the EEC and governed by a very different set of treaties so this point is arguable to a degree) with Greenland in 1985.

What there is definitely not any kind of precedent for is EU exit (through secession from an MS or any other fashion) and then readmission.

That is exactly why the EU line is that Scotland would have to apply as a new MS.

So were you offering us your more or less total ignorance of EU law, and that you have little to no idea of what you are talking about when you posted "There is no legal precedent for a constituent part of a member state seceding, thereby exiting the EU, and then applying for membership.
"? You get that my references to precedent were references to this - to your own inept use of term in that above question begging scenario i replied to? What an odd little thing to go to and do - to go and look up the word precedent in your books then come back and suggest that the example that you'd found had somehow been suggested by me.

And again. Your last line. Just assertion. No response to the two rather high level people who think different. No need to respond of course. The authority has spoken.
 
Good news, everyone. You can call off the referendum. BAE Systems have doubts, and you might not be able to get B&Q drill bits so easily.

Also the Danish foreign minister says it's a bad idea. Twice.

That image is just some crap a fool posted to some forums over 2 months ago, if google image search is anything to go by.
 
What there is definitely not any kind of precedent for is EU exit (through secession from an MS or any other fashion) and then readmission.

That is exactly why the EU line is that Scotland would have to apply as a new MS.
Can you tell me why no precedent def means no state could be allowed to stay in please? Why on earth would no precedent existing mean that none could be set? Each time you say there is no precedent you make the case that actually there are many potential outcomes here rather than your one - only one!!!! ONLY ONE!!!!!!
 
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