Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

[frogwoman]

apparently most scots down here are going to lie and say they're voting no because they might get their lights punched out if they were somewhere like Essex or London. never mind that they can't vote if theyre down here

 

[butchersapron]

apparently most scots down here are going to lie and say they're voting no because they might get their lights punched out if they were somewhere like Essex or London. never mind that they can't vote if theyre down here

Is this the same bullshitter?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I've got a mate who thinks there might be a backlash including a boycott. That would be pretty funny if anything. Such a backlash might tip the UKIP vote over the edge in Clacton though, especially if the tories go into a bit of a meltdown.

 

[butchersapron]

I've got a mate who thinks there might be a backlash including a boycott. That would be pretty funny if anything. Such a backlash might tip the UKIP vote over the edge in Clacton though, especially if the tories go into a bit of a meltdown.

Over the edge? The edge of a 40%+ lead?

 

[Sue]

Has your pal thought about getting involved in politics? Sounds like he has a lot to offer.

(Or is it at this point you mention he's the local tory mp or something..?)

 

[frogwoman]

Is this the same bullshitter?

no idea, ive worked with a lot of weirdos

 

[Andrew Hertford]

I've never thought of anywhere as a 'foreign' country. The whole concept of 'foreign' is foreign to me. I think most people find that they have most things in common with most other people wherever they go. Scotland won't become any more 'foreign' to me when it is independent.

Nicely put, but separation WILL create barriers between likeminded people that weren't there before. To me that is a shame.

 

[ddraig]

only if you let it bother your small mind

 

[DotCommunist]

apparently most scots down here are going to lie and say they're voting no because they might get their lights punched out if they were somewhere like Essex or London. never mind that they can't vote if theyre down here

i'm warming up my punching arm right now. Damn thier perfidious eyes.

 

[newbie]

Nicely put, but separation WILL create barriers between likeminded people that weren't there before. To me that is a shame.

pretty minor barriers. Yes, there'll be some mucking about with passport, currency and timezone at the border, but this is 2014, most people have got used to all that and treat it as a trivial inconvenience. And some sort of 'welcome to mcvodofone' roaming irritation, and trying to remember travel insurance, either of which could get expensive if not properly managed, but that's just like anywhere else abroad. Apart from that the barriers are inconsequential surely, they'll still speak the same language, drive on the left, eat chips and so on.

'Likeminded' isn't going to change, not in the short term anyway.

 

[frogwoman]

Nicely put, but separation WILL create barriers between likeminded people that weren't there before. To me that is a shame.

to be honest, I think the barriers are already there.

 

[dennisr]

We'll have to change this forum's name to 'UnUK and Scottish politics, curent affairs and news'

 

[frogwoman]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

 

[Diamond]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

This is a bigger concern in Brussels, hence the hollowness of the "yes" camps assertions about fast-track EU entry.

 

[frogwoman]

but once it's independent that's no longer a concern surely?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

I don't think so. A narrow 'no', if it leads to more devolution, may not be divisive.

I'm with you on the balkanisation worry. Even among well-meaning (ie not hating the other) nationalists, historical differences are emphasised, historical links and shared experiences and struggles downplayed. It's even evident on here in discussion of Welsh independence. Suddenly the Welsh are a separate nation with deep-rooted distinct traditions. Events from 600 years ago are dragged up. But there is a very different story that can be told.

 

[butchersapron]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

We can't balkanise with 3 established countries with no internal linguistic ethnic or religious territories. With no border-redrawing supported with no claims on areas within other existing or for historical states. Nothing. There is no dynamic or history or facts on the ground here that supports such a scenario.

And if you lot want it, well, wessex - we haven't gone anyway you know.

 

[Theisticle]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

That has worried me somewhat. Not on the whole, but I see pockets of fragmentation along those lines, especially if it goes Yes 49% No 51%. Certain nationalists are rewriting Scottish identity and recasting them as victims of the Empire (not benefactors). I imagine the revisionism of victimhood would continue with more austerity. Even with more devolution, they will still resent the current government (with good reason).

But on the flip side, I can also see resentment in parts of England, as some dislike the incentives given for devolution, or how the unionists in N. Ireland will respond, or Plaid Cymru.

Regardless of result, nationalism will be more directly woven into politics/political identity.

 

[Dillinger4]

Surprised this hasn't been discussed much but the only real thing that would worry me about Scottish independence (and I hope they vote yes btw) is the whole "balkanisation" of the UK and descent into nationalism and regionalism, although this would probably be even more likely with a narrow no vote.

I have always been in favour of increased regionalism (I wrote my dissertation at University about it), because I would like to see decentralization away from Westminster because it is a rotten cesspit. I'd like to see Northern regions start to plan as a region and maybe develop some kind of regional identity. Real democracy has always seemed much more possible on a smaller scale.

It is only during this election campaign that I have started to see the other point of view; that the United Kingdom is fundamentally multicultural, a mixture of different cultural and political traditions.

As I said, I wrote my dissertation about regional politics, but mostly focused on Spain. In Spain they have autonomous communities, a kind of unequal federalism, some regions like the Basque Country and Catalonia are nations and have more powers than other regions, and I wanted to explore whether it could be a model for other places in Europe, like the UK or Italy.

As it stands though, I wholeheartedly support the Yes vote. Westminster is so rotten that it needs to be destroyed. I can certainly understand that some of the motivation for Yes is that the Conservative government is so unpopular that Scotland would rather become an independent than live under their rule. I think that many people in England and Wales would be same given the choice to get rid of Westminster.

I think that a kind of 'balkanisation' might be a good thing. It is something I have thought about in the past and I could imagine getting involved in, with the right conditions. I wouldn't like to see it become divisive though. Just like I don't want to think that a Yes vote in Scotland will turn us against each other.

 

[butchersapron]

Balkanisation doesn't mean a community led process of peaceable decentralization. It means a process of competing elites getting others to die for them and their interests. Anyway, there is not the material for that process here. None whatsoever.

 

[Dogsauce]

I reckon the EU will welcome Scotland and probably take them in on more favourable terms than the remaining UK (in terms of the amount they pay in) just to fuck off the uppity bastards in London that won't play along with all their 'superstate' games. It'll add to the isolation of the Eurosceptics, although that's no longer just a British phenomenon.

As much as there might be some political/economic spite directed north of the border in the event of the split, there's an equal likelihood of support and solidarity from the likes of Ireland and maybe some of the Scandinavian states.

 

[butchersapron]

I reckon the EU will welcome Scotland and probably take them in on more favourable terms than the remaining UK (in terms of the amount they pay in) just to fuck off the uppity bastards in London that won't play along with all their 'superstate' games. It'll add to the isolation of the Eurosceptics, although that's no longer just a British phenomenon.

As much as there might be some political/economic spite directed north of the border in the event of the split, there's an equal likelihood of support and solidarity from the likes of Ireland and maybe some of the Scandinavian states.

The price of entry is austerity. Legally bound to it. It well also speed potential UK/whatever exit. Which the EU is desperate to avoid. If anyone is going under the bus it's scotland.

 

[Diamond]

On the EU front, it should be fairly clear that seceding from an EU member state means exiting the EU.

There is no legal precedent for a constituent part of a member state seceding, thereby exiting the EU, and then applying for membership.

I'm surprised the "no" camp haven't made more of this, although I suppose it is one of those numerous slightly complicated policy points that is difficult to get across succintly and directly.

To put it simply - a "yes" vote is a "yes" for leaving both (i) the UK and (ii) the EU.

 

[phildwyer]

We can't balkanise with 3 established countries with no internal linguistic ethnic or religious territories. With no border-redrawing supported with no claims on areas within other existing or for historical states. Nothing. There is no dynamic or history or facts on the ground here that supports such a scenario.

Monmouthshire is disputed territory. Not that anyone's likely to fight over it, but still.

 

[butchersapron]

On the EU front, it should be fairly clear that seceding from an EU member state means exiting the EU.

There is no legal precedent for a constituent part of a member state seceding, thereby exiting the EU, and then applying for membership.

I'm surprised the "no" camp haven't made more of this, although I suppose it is one of those numerous slightly complicated policy points that is difficult to get across succintly and directly.

To put it simply - a "yes" vote is a "yes" for leaving both (i) the UK and (ii) the EU.

When you say that it should be i take it that you're not referring to the large amount of rather more informed and experienced legal opinion than you that says, well it might not be?

 

[phildwyer]

Nicely put, but separation WILL create barriers between likeminded people that weren't there before. To me that is a shame.

Not literal barriers. Many Western European borders are effectively open these days. You don't even notice crossing from Holland into Germany. It would be like that.

 

[hash tag]

I am prompted to write because my loverly Local Authority were flying the Saltire over the Town Hall this morning! I guess that local police stations went the same way.
I am ver suspicious of the the British MP's who are offering those good folk the earth if nly they vote no, it's out of desperation almost.
Not sure if anyone has considered this before, but we will no longer be an Island Nation if they vote yes!

 

[marty21]

On the EU front, it should be fairly clear that seceding from an EU member state means exiting the EU.

There is no legal precedent for a constituent part of a member state seceding, thereby exiting the EU, and then applying for membership.

I'm surprised the "no" camp haven't made more of this, although I suppose it is one of those numerous slightly complicated policy points that is difficult to get across succintly and directly.

To put it simply - a "yes" vote is a "yes" for leaving both (i) the UK and (ii) the EU.

A lot in the No camp don't want to be in Europe so would struggle to use that as an argument.
Membership of the EU would be something that would get sorted eventually, don't see it as a major issue

 

[DotCommunist]

I'd expect to see scotland apply for and get membership under the same terms as the former UK. On the big thread this was discussed at length including contrasting quotes from EU legalish types

 

[belboid]

I'd expect to see scotland apply for and get membership under the same terms as the former UK. On the big thread this was discussed at length including contrasting quotes from EU legalish types

Not a chance they'd get thge same membership as UK immediately. Can you see the Eastern European newbies agreeing when they had to meet loads of new criteria but the Scots wouldn't? It'll be blocked, no chance of it being agreed by the agreed date for seperation. That said, Scotland would get, wotchamacallit, the favoured nation status, like the Swedes have, which would be more than good enough for them.