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Implications for the rest of us if Scotland votes yes

I still don't see why, if the Scots do become independent they feel they can just leave Northern Ireland to us...
 
newbie said:
We agree on the main thing, particularly as the proportion of (land but also etc) ownership in rUK will be somewhat less concentrated than at present. I've seen analysis of Scotland, eg the article ba linked "land ownership is the most concentrated in the developed world (half of Scotland’s land is owned by just 500 people)" but not what that implies for post-yes rUK- the figure in my mind is 7% own 84% but that's decades old and includes Scotland. i don't know what a modern figure is and a brief google hasn't turned one up).
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I don't really want to butt in on a thread which is about "the implications for the rest of us", but seeing as the media, the establishment, and many people in the rest of the UK simply aren't getting the referendum, I feel justified in doing so.

First, it isn't about our feelings towards English people. Not even a little bit.

There was a comedy programme on TV last night, Kevin Bridges Live at the Referendum. English & Scottish stand ups doing their take on the referendum.

The two English stand ups didn't get it all at. They thought it was about Scots wanting to distance themselves from English people. It isn't. It's about us wanting to distance ourselves from Westminster. We understand that there are many people in England who want to do that, too. But we have to do what is possible at the time. History has given this a tool, and if we don't use it, we'd have squandered an opportunity.

Jack Dee did a song all about what the Scots feel about the English. It was embarrassing. I like Jack Dee, by the way. I find him funny. But not here. He was trying his best; he was trying to understand, but he'd missed the point completely. I don't blame him - watching events from 300 miles away, you are reliant on what it being reported. But what's being reported is bollocks. This isn't even about Salmond versus Darling. Those debates are not the campaign; the real debate is going on in homes, pubs, bus stops, work places, cafes, house parties, barber shops, all over Scotland. You can't go anywhere that doesn't discuss it.

I dropped in on a friend on Friday who'd just had an operation, to see if she needed anything. She and her son immediately launched into their views on the referendum. Both former Nos, they are now voting Yes, and they wanted to run their thinking past me. And it was all about the opportunities - which they knew very well the limits of - that this offers.

There are many anarchist purists who want nothing to do with this. But I think they're wrong. The opportunity for full revolution is not here now, and sitting awaiting it is something I'll leave to dusty eggheads and pettifoggers like the SPGB. We are not going to get a socialist utopia, but we are able to do some real, practical, and immediately instrumental things. And create the moment where we may be able to do more.

But it isn't about identity. The SNP may have a stream of that in their civic nationalism, but this isn't about the SNP. The movement is far wider than that, and the SNP doesn't lead it, even if it wanted to. They just lit the touchpaper in terms of providing the moment (which, incidentally, I don't think they were ready for; they didn't expect to win the Holyrood elections in 2011 with a majority of seats. Their hand was forced).

So conflating "Scotland" into a homogeneous mass won't do. That isn't what a Yes vote is doing. And those landowners you talk about: Dan Snow's in-laws, all those people - the "Proud Scotbuts" - they're all voting No. Why? Because the current establishment suits them. They understand only too well that an upset in that can be used by the people, if we're clever about it. That's why it's them playing the nationalist hand rather than the Yes side.

So, over to you. Should we vote Yes, what can you do with it?
 
I am so looking forward to watching the post-yes chaos as the Westminster village wakes up to the consequences of their actions for the past few decades. That is potentially explosive and could bring great positive changes for England too, even here in the north. I have Labour-supporting friends who just see this through the prism of Westminster politics and wring their hands about the lost Scottish Labour MPs, complaining about the evil nationalist Salmond, utterly missing the point...
 
It's true there will be a period of chaotic readjustment across Britain - how ever nothing progressive can or will come of it in England because there is no groundswell of progressive ideas or a movement capable of encouraging them
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
It's true there will be a period of chaotic readjustment across Britain - how ever nothing progressive can or will come of it in England because there is no groundswell of progressive ideas or a movement capable of encouraging them
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Make one, then.

(I think you're wrong, btw, there are plenty of ideas that have popular support in England that just aren't reflected by the Westminster parties).
 
danny la rouge said:
I don't really want to butt in on a thread which is about "the implications for the rest of us", but seeing as the media, the establishment, and many people in the rest of the UK simply aren't getting the referendum, I feel justified in doing so.

First, it isn't about our feelings towards English people. Not even a little bit.
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thanks Danny, and obviously you're not butting in, though I'd prefer this thread to not be distracted into talking about Scotland. Personally I don't care about about Scottish feelings towards the English and I largely agree with much of the analysis I've seen you put forward. About opportunity to break the status quo and so on. Please don't take my response to pogo's snippy post about 'we poor English' as anything more generally applicable.

You are right though, down here people are not getting the referendum, it's not (IME) being discussed much, and where it is the discussion focusses on Scotland not on what might or could or will happen here. hence this thread.

if you don't mind I'll skip your views about a comedy show on TV as I know zilch about either.

So conflating "Scotland" into a homogeneous mass won't do.
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ok, but from this distance Scotland is a bit like France or Spain... reasonably familiar and with similarities to here and while I know full well there are regional, cultural and class differences I can't really differentiate bits of it in the way I can between say Herne Hill and Norwood.

Scotland is obviously not homogenous because on the main existential question there's a neat 50:50 split. Who knows where nationalistic deepening of that split may lead, possibilities from elsewhere include Quebec (referenced further up), positive examples like Czech Republic and Slovakia or where it's all gone horribly, horribly awry- like South Sudan, ex-Yugoslavia or, more recently, Ukraine. You're giving a genie some oxygen, like you I hope there are positive outcomes.

And those landowners you talk about: Dan Snow's in-laws, all those people - the "Proud Scotbuts" - they're all voting No. Why? Because the current establishment suits them. They understand only too well that an upset in that can be used by the people, if we're clever about it. That's why it's them playing the nationalist hand rather than the Yes side.
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the establishment favours the status quo? that doesn't come as a huge surprise, and I very much hope you can dislodge them if you get the majority. or indeed if you don't, iykwim.


So, over to you. Should we vote Yes, what can you do with it?
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well we won't know that until we start to talk it through, which we've not even started yet.
 
What are the implications for the left and the anarchist scene in England if there is a yes vote ? Are there any or is it just a question about getting the right line?
 
danny la rouge said:
Indeed.

- "Great Britain" is the name of the largest island of this archipelago (in contrast with "Lesser Britain", which is Brittany). The rUK will still have its capital on Great Britain.
- Ancient kingdoms united to create England.


The name will still make sense, even if it has to be redefined.
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Yes, but before the Act of Union, wasn't that state of united kingdoms called England?

The name of "New" country, subsequent to the union dissolvinhg, obviously can't include any reference to GB, and can only really reflect the remaining ragbag of a kingdom, principality and a province. Maybe "EWNI" pronounced 'uni'?:D
 
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newbie said:
It's getting quite close yet there seems very little discussion about the effect of a yes vote on what's being called rUK. Even that name is wrong, it will no longer be a united kingdom, just a single kingdom (well, queendom), untidily united with a principality, six counties and a few odd bits. As for the 'Great' in GB, well who knows.

We English have accepted, without demur, that enormous constitutional changes can be made to what we call 'our' nation without us getting any sort of say in the matter. Not just constitutional but more or less everything else significant is potentially being thrown up in the air, economic, defence, energy, diplomatic, political, boundaries and so on will all necessarily change.

That someone else can decide to alter such things for us is a very peculiar state of affairs, which we accept as being reasonable because they, the Scots, have the right to self determination. Personally I've heard very, very little in the way of challenges to that, which is fair enough though slightly surprising. I expected much more reactionary noise from the Little Englander right, especially about symbolic irrelevancies like the flag, the name of the nation, the coronation stone.

It's odd, there's a vacuum where discussion of what happens here, south of the border, if they vote yes should be. All we've really been told is that they'll put Trident in the home counties and we'll be blessed with a tory government forever.
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fellow Celts, Wales, and then us Cornish-Devonians, next
 
MAD-T-REX said:
Related to this thread, the next Government is going to be short-lived if there's a Yes vote. All of the Scottish MPs leaving in 2016 should prompt a General Election and Labour would be foolish to pander to Scottish voters for a year in Government (or two years at the most if, as is rumoured, Tory MPs will demand that Cameron and the Cabinet resign following a Yes vote).
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Not necessarily. It obviously depends on who wins the GE, and whether they're dependent on Scottish MPs for their majority.

Here's part of a post I made yesterday on the thread you linked to

This site currently predicts a Labour majority of 30 at the next GE

Party2010 Votes2010 SeatsPred VotesPred Seats
CON36.97%30731.82%258
LAB29.66%25834.31%340
LIB23.56%57 8.49%19
UKIP 3.17%015.89%0
NAT 2.26%9 2.95%14
MIN 4.37%19 6.54%19

If we remove 40 seats from Labour (that's their currently predicted no of Scottish seats) that gives them 300.

There are currently 59 Scottish MPs out of a total of 650, so if we remove all of them from Westminster after a notional independence, there will be a total of 591, meaning that Labour would still have an overall majority.
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Clearly there's still time for voting intentions to change, not least as a result of the referendum result. The much touted idea that Scottish independence will lead to a permanent Tory majority at Westminster (I realise this isn't what you're saying) isn't borne out either by history, or by the current state of opinion polls.
 
danny la rouge said:
Make one, then.

(I think you're wrong, btw, there are plenty of ideas that have popular support in England that just aren't reflected by the Westminster parties).
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Why I wasn't making a values statement I don't care

Eta as was out earlier: I know peoples appetite for progressive ideas is no weaker in England than it is in Scotland (in fact England is probably less reactionary than Scotland on the whole) but there is no real insurgent meaningful and believable force promoting a plausible expression of them.
 
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Great thread, personally I worry we will be come even more insular and the political centre will shift even more to the right, as spanky says, there is no great social movement ready to inspire people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/07/scotland-decides-union-tories

Owen Jones(in an unusually angry piece) thinks it may have a seismic effect here though and is even shaking up die hard Blairites like John McTernan(former Blair adviser) who recently had a Guardian piece on "how disabled people were fighting back on benefit cuts"
 
kenny g said:
It shows the state of the "left" in Britain when people seriously think nationalism is progressive. For all Danny's sneers at the SPGB, one hundred years ago its members analysis and rejection of nationalism (http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/...121-september-1914/war-and-socialist-position) led to them being imprisoned rather than take sides with capital, whilst many leftists were propounding the war as a step towards Socialism.
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And look at them now eh? What a successful movement
 
Spanky Longhorn said:
Yes got to count the pile of corpses left by the SNP or ERC or Plaid
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salmond.jpg

Worse than Stalin.
 
krink said:
i want Scotland to be an anarchist-communist society but a Yes on the 18th will do as a start :p
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I don't think the Scots workers will be any better off independent they'll get screwed by capital just the same - and as I've said elsewhere the SNP who will win very convincingly in the first election will become a truly neoliberal centre right government and start trashing what's left of the welfare state - but a yes vote will piss off the Tories and possibly cost them the next general election (combined with UKIP) so fuck it I support Yes
 
Sorry, to the op...one implication for me would be seriously considering moving to Scotland. It's only 70 miles to the border but I'd like to live a little further up in Edinburgh. Love the place. An implication for the rest of the UK would be....erm...I can't really think of any. Scottish fivers will be gone?
 
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