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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

Meant to say when you posted this the other day, this is from 2009, the new thing with Leeds University literally was a few page briefing that directly attacked all that was in that one above, which tells its own story I guess. I think we had a thread at the time it was originally published.

edit:yep - awful title though (and what a load of now passed on posters)

The white working class; Britain’s forgotten race victims?
 
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“ Some contributors discuss the decline in status of working-class occupations. A piece of research in Bethnal Green in the 1950s looked at the evaluation by working-class men of the status of different occupations.* The results showed that status was strongly linked by them to the utility and productivity of work; only doctors were ranked more highly than the working class occupations of craftsmen, miners or factory-workers in terms of their value to society. It would be very unlikely for the nature of much of today’s manual work to be valued so highly. As several contributors note, self- esteem is more closely linked to educational achievement today than ever before.”
I recall this was also a strong theme in Status Anxiety by Alain de Botton.

Actually, anybody read that particular book and have any thoughts on it as an overall work?
 
Meant to say when you posted this the other day, this is from 2009, the new thing with Leeds University literally was a 2 page briefing that directly attacked all that was in that one above, which tells its own story I guess. I think we had a thread at the time it was originally published.

edit:yep - awful title though (and what a load of now passed on posters)

The white working class; Britain’s forgotten race victims?

Yeah, I know. I misread it as January 2019 not 2009. However, the salient point, as you say, is how far the Trust has moved away from research that emphasis routes of solidarity to a paper that crudely pits the communities of the north against each other in a battle for resources.

That said I really need to stop linking to a report that’s a decade old :D
 
wow this is still going? identity politics is just collective narcissism, hardly worth bothering with imo, but each to their own init.

Leaving aside the value of identity politics, where I largely agree with you but noting genuine liberation politics is class politics, I think the importance of the debate is about the weight they carry. Particularly in liberal left debate
 
Class war is something the bosses do very well. We, on the other hand, are in an almost perpetual state of class surrender. Class is not an identity, it's part and parcel of the capitalist system and how it works. Anyone who thinks it is about identity, is not only talking out of their wheato but is also backing up the boss class and their system... And anyone who thinks the idea of "class pride" is useful is really just proud of being a slave. The point for communists, anarchists, revolutionary socialists is to abolish class by destroying capitalism.
 
"identity politics" of "englishness"..?
Some interesting points here , not sure about all of it....but one consequence of scottish self-determination/autonomy/independence could be rise in assertion of english identity
Nationalism in England is not just a rightwing nostalgia trip | John Denham

I think there could be confusion over terms "nationalism" and "national identity".
Can working class cultural identities located in England be acknowledged without being "nationalist" ?
 
Class war is something the bosses do very well. We, on the other hand, are in an almost perpetual state of class surrender. Class is not an identity, it's part and parcel of the capitalist system and how it works. Anyone who thinks it is about identity, is not only talking out of their wheato but is also backing up the boss class and their system... And anyone who thinks the idea of "class pride" is useful is really just proud of being a slave. The point for communists, anarchists, revolutionary socialists is to abolish class by destroying capitalism.

Class war by all means.....although within the working class is there not relative dis/advantages that can be acknowledged
eg. around issues of gender , ethnicity etc. ?
 
Yes there are. And these are things we must try and overcome together, while at the same time not brushing things under the carpet... because if we ever do take on the task of smashing the system, it'll need a degree of class unity. A mostly united working class is the only thing that can achieve this - not politicos, not groups of 'enlightened' radicals, not by continually 'calling out' people for being less enlightened... but by a mass movement of the working class with various layers of advantage/disadvantage but with the nous to see a common cause.
 
I think there could be confusion over terms "nationalism" and "national identity".
Can working class cultural identities located in England be acknowledged without being "nationalist" ?
Depends on whether they are (deliberately or unintentionally) predominantly "english" or whether they embrace and include those who are not english.

Some of the purported "working class cultural identities" we see put forward on these threads are, IMO, specifically or mainly English or at least British Isles working class cultural identities.
 
Depends on whether they are (deliberately or unintentionally) predominantly "english" or whether they embrace and include those who are not english.

Can be tricky to determine.....e.g. Whether John McDonnell's recent reference when he was in Edinburgh to "English parliament" was deliberate or a unthinking slip of the tongue.....
It's not uncommon for English people to confuse English/British
 
Can be tricky to determine.....e.g. Whether John McDonnell's recent reference when he was in Edinburgh to "English parliament" was deliberate or a unthinking slip of the tongue.....
It's not uncommon for English people to confuse English/British
That's true, but TBH I was thinking more of the tendency of some here to talk about working class culture when what they are actually referring to is native English/British working-class culture
 
Great piece on the many problems with Roediger's Wages of Whiteness and the related approach, been waiting on this for a long time. The whole issue of non-site is full of great stuff, as was the previous one on the legacy of Judith Stein of which this is a continuation.

The Wages of Roediger: Why Three Decades of Whiteness Studies Has Not Produced the Left We Need - Cedric Johnson

This essay examines Roediger’s latest book, but also takes stock of the interpretative assumptions of some three decades of whiteness studies in academe, and its consequences for left thought and action. Throughout what follows, I offer alternative historical analysis and case-study illustrations to demonstrate the limits of whiteness discourse, and how we might approach questions of class power and interests instead.

...

As historian Eric Arnesen pointed out in a critical overview of the whiteness studies literature, “Whiteness is, variously, a metaphor for power, a proxy for racially distributed material benefits, a synonym for ‘white supremacy,’ an epistemological stance defined by power, a position of invisibility or ignorance, and a set of beliefs about racial ‘others’ and one-self that can be rejected through ’treason’ to a racial category.”8 The promiscuity of the concept of whiteness, and related notions of white privilege and white supremacy make it a difficult concept to criticize, as Arnesen adds, “it is nothing less than a moving target.”


...
This essay takes aim at this central premise regarding “white interests” running through Roediger’s oeuvre, from The Wages of Whiteness to his most recent book, and widely adopted by other academics, professional trainers, activists and citizens. The academic and popular discourse of whiteness is concerned with the “souls of white folks” if you will, their predilections, behaviors and reactionary tendencies, often relying on retrospective psychoanalysis to discern the interior lives and private motives of the antebellum crowd, the minstrel show audience, southern lynch mobs and middle class suburban strivers alike, even when evidence of those motives and interests is scant.

The historian Barbara Fields once remarked that “Whiteness is the shotgun marriage of two incoherent but well-loved concepts: identity and agency.”10 That said, this essay seeks to begin divorce proceedings because a keen sense of historical interests, the shifting, territorial demands and worlds people fight to realize in their times, is lost in the common inferences made through psychohistory and the false equation of identity and political interests, analytical moves which are central to whiteness studies, and for that matter, much contemporary thinking on blackness and race in the US. As Fields reminds us, whiteness acts as a thimblerig that “performs a series of deft displacements, first substituting race for racism, then postulating identity as the social substance of race, and finally attributing racial identity to persons of European descent.”11 And I would add, the same thimblerig enables attributing political interests to whites (and blacks) without the critical analysis and investigatory rigor that might sharpen our understanding of class and power in American history.

...

Whiteness has come to function not so much as an analysis of interests in historical motion, but rather, it functions as catechism—America’s original sin is racism and redemption in the post-political hereafter lies in white atonement. With respect to class struggle and the maintenance of consent and order by dominant classes, the devil is in the details of history, details that fall out of focus when we evoke “white interests” as a metanarrative of what is wrong with American politics. Roediger’s work has advanced an approach to thinking about history and contemporary politics that reifies whiteness, even as it explores its social construction, presupposes that racial identity is the foremost shaper of working-class thought and action, and silences interracial solidarity.
 
It has been suggested that we need a thread specifically to discuss identity politics. In order for it to have a fighting chance of not collapsing into chaos as people talk past each other, I thought the OP needed a brief exposition of some of the basic issues as I see them. No doubt others will want to similarly outline what they see as the basics. This is not intended as exhaustive, and I have written elsewhere on the boards about my views. It is, however, intended as a starting point for discussion.


In today’s ‘radical’ politics there is an assumption, sometimes stated, sometimes unstated, but either way underpinning much of the thinking one comes across, that identity and politics are a continuum. We can see this continuum as analogous to spacetime. We’ll call it identitypolitics. In this model, identity is politics and politics is identity. The one is but an aspect of the other. In this model, it is assumed that certain people will necessarily be drawn to ‘radicalism’ because of their identity, and that certain others will tend towards ‘reactionary politics’ because of theirs. This is essentialism.

Furthermore, because of the pervasiveness of this model, it is now the widespread common sense that the only way to respect the struggles of marginalised people is through this model. In this now dominant common sense, identitypolitics is just a synonym for anti-racism, for feminism, for opposition to homophobia and transphobia and so on. Just as top down Multiculturalism is seen by so many as just a synonym for respecting diversity and inclusivity. And so, if one criticises identitypolitics, one is seen by many as opposing anti-racism, as opposing feminism, and so on, because identitypolitics has become seen as the only way of doing those things.

In this thread I hope we can discuss yes whether identitypolitics is the only way of doing these things, and whether, in fact, it really does those things, but more importantly whether there are other, better, ways of doing them.

And here we will hit another issue these debates often hit. There is a category error that invariably comes up. It is often assumed by identitypolitics practitioners that critics are arguing that “class is more important than race (or gender, or sexuality, or whatever)”. This is a misrepresentation that comes about because people have become so used to seeing identity as the basis for politics that they can only see competing identities, nothing else.

If I say I am interested in class analysis, I am not putting forward some identitarian conception of class; I am talking about understanding social structures that prevent us from achieving social justice; social structures that prevent us, ultimately, from achieving self-government. I am not setting up “working class” (or, worse still, “white working class”) as an identity.

“Differences of age and sex have no longer any distinctive social validity for the working class. All are instruments of labour, more or less expensive to use, according to their age and sex”. (Marx and Engels, the Communist Manifesto).​

This is not saying that class is an identity and “more important” than “age or sex”; it is saying that capitalism has resulted in social structures that place us - all identities together - in a particular economic relationship. Age and sex (and we would now add race and sexuality and gender identity and so on) are a different thing to that economic relationship. Arguing which is “more important” is like arguing whether apples are more important than gravity. It’s not a discussion even worth having. It’s not a discussion any reasonable person is having.

It is important to reiterate here that I’m not suggesting that class structure is a thing and identities aren’t; I’m suggesting they’re different things. Different sorts of things.

Nor am I saying that identity is unimportant: identity is an essential part of what it is to be human. We cannot be without it. Nor am I saying the struggles I referred to above (the sight against bigotry and racism, against sexism and misogyny, against homophobia and transphobia, and so on) are unimportant. Far from it. Those struggles are vital, those causes are just, and they must be supported not diminished. And it should be pointed out that there is nothing that I gain from class struggle that doesn’t apply to everyone.

The question I want to ask is the best way of going about fighting those oppressions, and whether identitypolitics is helpful or counterproductive.

So how did we come to a point where identitypolitics has replaced structural analysis?

This blogpost offers a worthwhile perspective:

“Roots of this can be found in neoliberalism and its agenda of dissolving society into individuals and commodities. Of course, neoliberalism does not dissolve classes within production or the division of labour, but it dissolves the political potential of the working class through the individualisation of class. Which is why the left of today, in its inability to cope with the complete destruction of its historical counterpart through the 20th century, has decided to turn towards ideology and strategies of the far right, with its emphasis on the individual, its identity, ethnic romanticism and defence of culture and has replaced the class with it. The class interest of the working class is not what drives the left politics of today as the working class is viewed mainly as one of the ‘underdog’ identities.”​


So, for me, despite its origins in decent endeavour, identitypolitics is not now of the left. It is not socialist (even in the broadest sense). It is not an opposition to structures of oppression, because it doesn’t tackle those structures. But, further than that, it belongs alongside other reactionary and biological determinist viewpoints, because it uses biology to divide us, it apportions responsibility according to biology and identity, and in using the ideas of the reactionary right, ends up only serving the purposes of the ruling class.


There are other points and arguments that I could have covered but have decided to leave for the forthcoming discussion.

seems a long time since this thread
 
Thanks butchersapron

I keep nonsite on my radar, so I’d spotted that, but didn’t think of posting it here.
Nonsite have just republished Adolph Reed's


Some readers will know that I’ve contended that, despite its proponents’ assertions, antiracism is not a different sort of egalitarian alternative to a class politics but is a class politics itself: the politics of a strain of the professional-managerial class whose worldview and material interests are rooted within a political economy of race and ascriptive identity-group relations. Moreover, although it often comes with a garnish of disparaging but empty references to neoliberalism as a generic sign of bad things, antiracist politics is in fact the left wing of neoliberalism in that its sole metric of social justice is opposition to disparity in the distribution of goods and bads in the society, an ideal that naturalizes the outcomes of capitalist market forces so long as they are equitable along racial (and other identitarian) lines.


...with a new intro by Cedric Johnson explaining why:


Adolph Reed, Jr.’s “How Racial Disparity Does Not Help Make Sense of Patterns of Police Violence,” should be read again and often during this moment of resurgent Black Lives Matter sentiment, precisely because he so clearly names the limitations of anti-racism as a way of thinking about the problems of carceral power, and cautions against any left-progressive politics that separates racism from historical processes and political economy. As Reed notes, “antiracism is not a different sort of egalitarian alternative to a class politics but is a class politics itself.” Furthermore, antiracist politics is essentially “the left wing of neoliberalism in that its sole metric of social justice is opposition to disparity in the distribution of goods and bads in the society, an ideal that naturalizes the outcomes of capitalist market forces so long as they are equitable along racial (and other identitarian) lines.” Of course, I can already hear some friends of mine, academic colleagues and activists alike, who will grumble and cry foul, quickly asserting the presence of this or that tendency that embodies the true radical spirit of Black Lives Matter. Others will likely point to the scale of recent protests as evidence of a new moment, a turning point that will yield massive substantive reforms. Like Occupy Wall Street protests before, however, Black Lives Matter is more of a sentiment than a fully formed political force. Let’s not forget that it was born as hashtag, and while it has provided a powerful banner for longer-standing organizations and legislative campaigns working to reverse the social toll of carceral expansion, the liberal character of the hashtag should be more apparent now than ever.

Black Lives Matter sentiment is essentially a militant expression of racial liberalism.
 
Let’s not forget that it was born as hashtag,
that's the key bit, imo. It has appeared as different things in different places, especially over the last couple of weeks. It isn't just a top down movement, it is one that has developed and spread almost spontaneously. Just looking at the difference between what is happening in Leeds and in Sheffield (as has been referred to on the UK BLM thread) where one is a genuine bottom up movement and one has been the old voices trying to dictate. 'BLM' isn't any one thing.

"Sure, some activists are calling for defunding police departments and de-carceration, but as a popular slogan, Black Lives Matter is a cry for full recognition within the established terms of liberal democratic capitalism. And the ruling class agrees" the article goes in to say, but even now and in the US it is way beyond 'some activists', its the goddamned council! And the council doesn't equal the ruling class. Defunding the police is now the mainstream belief of BLM, which shows it isnt just the voice of the established liberal left.

It's a movement, and when there's a genuine movement anything is possible, even if it doesn't start out with a fully formed class consciousness.
 
butchersapron any update on the book by Cedric Johnson that you mentioned up thread?

Thanks for posting the piece by the way. I again seem to have missed this despite subscribing to Nonsite using the sign up on its page.
 
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