Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[butchersapron]

butchersapron any update on the book by Cedric Johnson that you mentioned up thread?

Thanks for posting the piece by the way. I again seem to have missed this despite subscribing to Nonsite using the sign up on its page.

Heard nothing further on those lines - would be nice to see it happen.

 

[butchersapron]

Hour long interview with Malik just been made available - not watched yet, so don't take as full endorsement, though he's probably bang on the money.

Stine Jensen spoke extensively with writer Kenan Malik for this episode of Dus Ik Volg, about identity politics, racism and values. Malik's call: look beyond identity, look at what someone's values are.

 

[danny la rouge]

Yes, got this in his latest mail out. Haven’t seen it all yet, but first 10 or so minutes are absolute gold.

 

[Red Cat]

Thanks for that butchersapron

 

[treelover]

deleted, error in posting

 

[LDC]

Hour long interview with Malik just been made available - not watched yet, so don't take as full endorsement, though he's probably bang on the money.

Stine Jensen spoke extensively with writer Kenan Malik for this episode of Dus Ik Volg, about identity politics, racism and values. Malik's call: look beyond identity, look at what someone's values are.

Listening at work, excellent, thanks. Although I thought the interviewer wasn't great.

 

[redsquirrel]

Jus been re reading this, Wow, so enlightening, and imo, impossible to have the same conversation now, Kaka Tim, admitting that their was a favouritism towards ethnic minorities with some resource allocation, amongst community managers, etc, even the title could see people lose their jobs(academics) if this was published in a different context, and yes, many went down the IdPol rabbit hole on here, more discusion on transgender toilets than benefit cuts that were leading to people taking their own lives

What are you talking about? I don't think KT has posted on this thread and no this thread would not mean that people (academics) would lose their jobs.

 

[treelover]

Apologies, i have posted on the the wrong thread, it was the one about the white working class, started by Mozaz in 2009. However, it was linked to from this thread, I will delete and repost it on UK politics. I stand by my views on the thread, and KT did say that on it.

which i now can't find, the last comment on it observed how many contributors had passed.

 

[redsquirrel]

OK do you want me to delete your quote in my post? I don't think it is needed really but will do if you want me to.

 

[kabbes]

Just watched that Malik interview. It’s very good. In the interests of completeness, though, I think there are areas where his answers to some of the challenges are rather narrow in scope (he skirts, for example, the question about how being black is an assigned identity with specific consequences (not that the interviewer put it in those terms) and switched to the safer grounds of talking about being Muslim instead). I’m also not convinced by his bifurcation between politics derived from values versus those derived from identity, whereas in reality these two things both are socially constructed, giving them reciprocity rather than one linearly causing the other.

 

[rekil]

The shit/edgy comedian bit went on for ages and didn't even make any sense as there were no subs when the editor or whoever kept cutting to the two of them staring at the screen. Kenan Malik piece in the guardian as well. He waded through laurie's apparently unsellable piece to give her the mention.

'White privilege' is a distraction, leaving racism and power untouched | Kenan Malik

This is a transformational moment. Let’s use it to challenge structural injustice, not to elicit or wallow in guilt

www.theguardian.com

 

[danny la rouge]

The shit/edgy comedian bit went on for ages and didn't even make any sense as there were no subs when the editor or whoever kept cutting to the two of them staring at the screen.

The film is uncut. We saw the shit satirist twice. The second time was the reaction shots for cutting into the finished film.

 

[redsquirrel]

One of the main things I take from it is that despite Mailk making his points very clearly, using plenty of examples his points are so out there to the interviewer that they struggle to conceive them. That might partly be a language issue but as this thread shows even for those with the same first language the conceptual windows can so far apart that it does lead to conflict.

 

[kabbes]

One of the main things I take from it is that despite Mailk making his points very clearly, using plenty of examples his points are so out there to the interviewer that they struggle to conceive them. That might partly be a language issue but as this thread shows even for those with the same first language the conceptual windows can so far apart that it does lead to conflict.

On that score, my favourite part was when she suggested that all conversations should start by acknowledging somebody’s pain, like the bad guy from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. And Malik just looked at her like, “what do I do with this?”

 

[CNT36]

On that score, my favourite part was when she suggested that all conversations should start by acknowledging somebody’s pain, like the bad guy from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. And Malik just looked at her like, “what do I do with this?”

It's possibly the most patronising way to start a conversation.

 

[danny la rouge]

My pain is the general unsatisfactoriness of existence. Your refusal to acknowledge it invalidates my identity.

 

[Athos]

Just watched that Malik interview. It’s very good. In the interests of completeness, though, I think there are areas where his answers to some of the challenges are rather narrow in scope (he skirts, for example, the question about how being black is an assigned identity with specific consequences (not that the interviewer put it in those terms) and switched to the safer grounds of talking about being Muslim instead). I’m also not convinced by his bifurcation between politics derived from values versus those derived from identity, whereas in reality these two things both are socially constructed, giving them reciprocity rather than one linearly causing the other.

I agree, and I liked it, too.

But, I think it's a shame that she didn't probe harder on some if these points. The dichotomy between politics based on values versus that based on identity skates over the role of material interests!

I'd also have liked to see her go into on some of the other common rebuttals to his central argument against the efficacy of identity politics e.g. the idea that minorities are being asked to deprioritise any improvement to their lot in favour of ending capitslism. It'd have given him the opportunity to address them head-on (which, from his writings, I'm sure he'd have done easily).

In particular, it'd have been good to see more talk of class struggle, and why that's not identity politics (i.e. the difference between a personal characteristic and a relationship with the means of production). And maybe some more about the nuances of how class and identities interact.

 

[8ball]

My pain is the general unsatisfactoriness of existence. Your refusal to acknowledge it invalidates my identity.

I acknowledge your pain.

 

[killer b]

I like the Politics is negotiable, Identity by definition isn't line. Seems to me that precise tension has been the source of huge amounts of conflict in recent years.

 

[8ball]

One of the main things I take from it is that despite Mailk making his points very clearly, using plenty of examples his points are so out there to the interviewer that they struggle to conceive them. That might partly be a language issue but as this thread shows even for those with the same first language the conceptual windows can so far apart that it does lead to conflict.

I thought his clarity and patience was great in that interview. I think you're right that the difficulty comes in making a conceptual shift if you are very deep into the idpol. I also think the interviewer's English was far too good for language to have been an issue there.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

i wrote this on May 13th - and i feel this debate is really parochial now. who cares about idpol outside of UK and America?

"Meanwhile elsewhere: The protests in Iraq (which have kickstarted the past week) have had one of the most consistent working class anti-imperialist politics, be it from storming and occupying the american-controlled green zone in Baghdad to burning iranian consulates.."

Irak’ta hükümet karşıtı eylemler yeniden başladı – Yeryüzü Postası

www.yeryuzupostasi.org

 

[8ball]

who cares about idpol outside of UK and America?

Canada, much of Europe, Australia...
Basically all of Whiteyville.

 

[Athos]

Canada, much of Europe, Australia...
Basically all of Whiteyville.

Or, nothing to do with skin colour, it being a phenomenon in those countries where those representing the interests of capital can more easily obscure class (they must be delighted that the working class is increasingly fragmented along identity lines).

 

[ManchesterBeth]

Or, nothing to do with skin colour, it being a phenomenon in those countries where those representing the interests of capital can more easily obscure class (they must be delighted that the working class is increasingly fragmented along identity lines).

good thing the working class in the advanced capitalist countries is abandoning the left then eh?

Surely that is a good conclusion for you.

All the western left does is compensate for the failures of activism in their own (middle class) political sphere. It has 0 influence on the working class as it is composed.

This should have been evident from London last Saturday.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

the problem as such is politics. No good being anti-idpol if you capitulate to ossified trade unionism and labourism is it.

the left says white privilege is terrible. the right says it doesn't exist.

We say, so what? we're not gonna let the phantom of the american oppressor treat us like innocent abstractions. Seeing immigrants as humans requires us to have the dignity to do horrible things with no pseudo anti-imperialist justification.

 

[belboid]

what is decried as 'idpol' by the lazy here, is still seen as human and civil rights in many countries where laws supporting women's rights, gay rights, trans rights etc are still needed, oppression still being real n all that.

 

[kabbes]

what is decried as 'idpol' by the lazy here, is still seen as human and civil rights in many countries where laws supporting women's rights, gay rights, trans rights etc are still needed, oppression still being real n all that.

The point is: focus on the need for equality, not on an assumption those with an overlap of identity will have a homogeneity of values resulting from the overlap that just naturally produces a uniformity of politics

 

[LDC]

what is decried as 'idpol' by the lazy here, is still seen as human and civil rights in many countries where laws supporting women's rights, gay rights, trans rights etc are still needed, oppression still being real n all that.

Huh, that post makes me think you've not read lots on this thread.

 

[belboid]

Huh, that post makes me think you've not read lots on this thread.

i've read most of this thread and am currently going through the, surprisingly poor, latest bit of Malik. I'll return anon about that - some of it is just absurd: 'people have the idea that blacks, gays etc must be progressive'!!

But the point I was replying to stated that these questions are only being discussed in the english speaking (or advanced capitalist) world, which is just silly. The same issues are being fought over and whilst the exact form of those struggles in different in the dominant powers and the dominated powers, there is clear distinction drawn as to why one is good and the other bad. And in the wake of BLM, especially its most recent explosion, it seems to be easily countered.

 

[8ball]

Or, nothing to do with skin colour...