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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

Surely there's a lot of overlap?

Yeah, for the later I think there can be. The former not so much. Long discussion and not that related to the topic in hand though.

Not saying one is 'good' and t'other 'bad' mind you, just that the differences need to be honestly acknowledged.
 
After I graduated I was keen to get back to China but didn't think I'd be any good as a teacher plus wanted to do something "worthwhile" so volunteered in rural development for a couple of years. Remember joking to one of the farmers that I was getting a lot out of it even if him and his community weren't so much; projects in and of themselves often sort of OK but clearly no substitute for grassroots politics and some like microfinance actively pushing the market to places it had barely reached before.
 
gaza boasting at 1 am because they didn't like the direction of conversation. And it was absolutely used to establish an authenticity, then call everyone else LARP cunts. I can read tone pretty damn well (if I may blow my own trumpet), and that post was pure arch middle class snottiness. Glass of wine, 1 am. 'You people, you lumpens. Get a fucking kipling reference in'

Kipling probably thought we were superstitious barbarians lol. well, onwards barbarian kurds!
 
I work for a humanitarian organisation, we have to be neutral politically.. And tbh being neutral is one of the most difficult things I've ever had to be. If we're not neutral we can't do the work, but at what point does being neutral make you the enemy..and at what point do you risk no longer being able to actually make a real difference in people's lives because you've had to stand up for your values.

It's a complex area to work in when youre not allowed to be political, but it absolutely gets results.. We actually have to spend a lot of time training to be neutral and impartial and we study ihl to really nail it. I often think it's like being in a cult and I'll probably need an intervention at some point...

However it does seem that if you can keep it up for long enough governments of all flavours come to trust you and invite your counsel

Political neutrality is nonexistent.
 
Let’s get beyond that tho to the actual point she was making, which I thinks valid. And that is that sometimes to get stuff changed you end up working with or alongside people’s whose political views you don’t 100% agree with. Loki in his article actually made a similar point, that it’s necessarily to concede some issues, recognise that others might have a different POV but the same goal, but work together anyway.

How far are you going to take it though? Do you think that I should have worked with the far right for brexit? Even though as someone who is racially Jewish, these same people would put me in a concentration camp then kill me along with my family if they got into power? Even though i will have to put up with racist comments and physical threats/possible abuse should they come to know I am racially Jewish?

More broadly should I work with this group whose aims are the same but whose reasons for wanting that are radically different and often totally opposed to the reasons I want it?

Or with feminism, the christian right are a deeply conservative grouping, ime generally they want to see traditional roles for women - mother and homemaker. As a broad sweep they are deeply regressive when it comes to womens rights but have been mentioned as a potential ally for eg: maternity leave issues. I don't get this at all. They want to roll back the victories of feminism in almost every area but you want to ally with them on the handful of issues they don't? Seems odd to me. We might end up in the same rally or giving evidence to the same parliamentary group or whatever but an alliance? no. The same people who line up outside abortion clinics, abusing women going there, will be in those groups, do you really want to line yourself up alongside them?

So yes, you work with people you don't 100% agree with not least because who on earth agrees 100% with anyone else? You'd always be on your own if you stuck to that. But there has to be a point where you say no, that group is not a group I can work with.

And even where it's a group you can work with, if they want to go one direction, and you think that is the wrong way and should go a different direction, do you still try to work together? If you don't work together, is that because you are a purist, or because the ideas of your groups are fundamentally incompatible, even though the aim is the same?
And if you disagree with the other group, and you argue to go about things another way, does that mean you are against achieving the aim of that other group?
 
Mate I voted Lib Dem last time. I pretty much choose at random now tbh (excluding the tories). Then I think probably shouldn’t bother to vote, then I think I should be grateful I live in a democracy.
 
Mate I voted Lib Dem last time. I pretty much choose at random now tbh (excluding the tories). Then I think probably shouldn’t bother to vote, then I think I should be grateful I live in a democracy.

Capital is delighted that you're grateful for the illusion of choice.
 
You really don't know how to talk to people do you?

Eh?

ETA: you mean it was a bit abrupt? Yes, rereading it, it does come across that way. Sorry Edie, I was just trying to convey the idea that the choice is illusory insofar as none of the options challenge capital.
 
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Eh?

ETA: you mean it was a bit abrupt? Yes, rereading it, it does come across that way. Sorry Edie, I was just trying to convey the idea that the choice is illusory insofar as none of the options challenge capital.
Oh it’s okay, I think I know what you mean. I think I’m just not quite as cynical (for want of a better word) as you. I genuinely think most MPs (even some Tories) think they are doing their best. It’s just the influence of capitalism, of money and financial interests, just distorts it all. The structure of it (sorry I’m no political analyst). I would like power to be brought down to the lowest levels, like regionally if possible, so the local MPs in the local parliament (Leeds for example) were actually accountable with some stuff run nationally (defence would have to be for example). But then you’d get issues of postcode lottery in the nhs for example. I don’t really know what the answer is, never have. Still vote though, some power is better than none at all?
 
And I don’t know how to challenge capital. Anyway this has strayed a long way from identity politics which isn’t fair on DLR.
 
Oh it’s okay, I think I know what you mean. I think I’m just not quite as cynical (for want of a better word) as you. I genuinely think most MPs (even some Tories) think they are doing their best. It’s just the influence of capitalism, of money and financial interests, just distorts it all. The structure of it (sorry I’m no political analyst). I would like power to be brought down to the lowest levels, like regionally if possible, so the local MPs in the local parliament (Leeds for example) were actually accountable with some stuff run nationally (defence would have to be for example). But then you’d get issues of postcode lottery in the nhs for example. I don’t really know what the answer is, never have. Still vote though, some power is better than none at all?

I agree that it's structural. And that people (from MPs to well- meaning liberals) often think they're doing the right thing. I'd prefer direct democracy, at the lowest possible level, as opposed to any form of representative democracy.
 
I am an idiot for going over the railing about "bleeding in Gaza" as someone precicely put it. That is a bullshit thing to do, regardless of how much bleeding has been done. I got worked up because my impression was that solidarty work in Gaza was being condemned, in the same vein as cross-political feminist work. It turned out, in this instance, that I misunderstood what turned out to be a case of a hard difference between alliance and cooperation. In my language, that is not a hard demarcation, no demarcation at all, really. It is the same thing, as far as my day-to-day discussions go. But I am still, obvilously, kind of not that happy about cross-political feminist work is being "put in place". and I do not think this has any less importance than the whole bleeding in Gaza thing.. The feminist thing is what I think is really, really imortant.
 
So based on that, and on this:

I have read a lot of feminist theory from the last three centuries, and there is a lot of moronic stuff all over the place: the strict religious moralism of the proto-feminists,the racism and classism of the 19th-century (and beyond!),all that running with the wolves and "authentic call to nature" of the seventies, the straigth up man hating of the eighties. But all those morons might not have been the most helpful at all times, most of them still, for all their faults made some meaningful contribution to the feminist movement. They are not the de facto reason that men as such were or are anti-feminists. Not even the lesbian seperatist, p-i-v is rape, feminists were in any relevant way the cause of that. Anti-feminists has always managed this feat on their own. Because the reason for anti-feminism is not stupid feminists, it is the prevalence of sexism and misogyny under a patriarcal order. The reason for racism is not misguided anti-racists, it is the fact that we live in a racist society. The reason for homophobia is not that the lgbt-movement are too loud. To not see that, but see anti-feminism as a failure of feminists to take proper care of men, is anti-feminism.

Then I have to ask again,

Do you consider the gains of Feminism should be limited to women?

In other words, if men are failing to engage positively with feminism because they do not believe there is any advantage in feminism for them, is this perception something that should be actively challenged, or would you just say Nah, fuckem? Do men, in your view, have a stake in feminism that is worth nurturing?

Asking for a friend.
 
Of course men have a stake in feminism. There isn’t a day that goes by when I don’t worry about my lads and the effect that a macho, fights in school and outside on the streets, not cool to learn (whilst girls press ahead), boys don’t cry they just get angry, culture has on them.

Tangentially related but omg yes New Zealand! 'A huge win': New Zealand brings in paid domestic violence leave in world first

We know women’s economic situation is pivotal to her choices that decides what she can and can’t do

If that’s been fort for by women of any political background I salute them. Proper understanding of the ‘why don’t they just leave’.
 
It has been suggested that we need a thread specifically to discuss identity politics. In order for it to have a fighting chance of not collapsing into chaos as people talk past each other, I thought the OP needed a brief exposition of some of the basic issues as I see them. No doubt others will want to similarly outline what they see as the basics. This is not intended as exhaustive, and I have written elsewhere on the boards about my views. It is, however, intended as a starting point for discussion.


In today’s ‘radical’ politics there is an assumption, sometimes stated, sometimes unstated, but either way underpinning much of the thinking one comes across, that identity and politics are a continuum. We can see this continuum as analogous to spacetime. We’ll call it identitypolitics. In this model, identity is politics and politics is identity. The one is but an aspect of the other. In this model, it is assumed that certain people will necessarily be drawn to ‘radicalism’ because of their identity, and that certain others will tend towards ‘reactionary politics’ because of theirs. This is essentialism.

Furthermore, because of the pervasiveness of this model, it is now the widespread common sense that the only way to respect the struggles of marginalised people is through this model. In this now dominant common sense, identitypolitics is just a synonym for anti-racism, for feminism, for opposition to homophobia and transphobia and so on. Just as top down Multiculturalism is seen by so many as just a synonym for respecting diversity and inclusivity. And so, if one criticises identitypolitics, one is seen by many as opposing anti-racism, as opposing feminism, and so on, because identitypolitics has become seen as the only way of doing those things.

In this thread I hope we can discuss yes whether identitypolitics is the only way of doing these things, and whether, in fact, it really does those things, but more importantly whether there are other, better, ways of doing them.

And here we will hit another issue these debates often hit. There is a category error that invariably comes up. It is often assumed by identitypolitics practitioners that critics are arguing that “class is more important than race (or gender, or sexuality, or whatever)”. This is a misrepresentation that comes about because people have become so used to seeing identity as the basis for politics that they can only see competing identities, nothing else.

If I say I am interested in class analysis, I am not putting forward some identitarian conception of class; I am talking about understanding social structures that prevent us from achieving social justice; social structures that prevent us, ultimately, from achieving self-government. I am not setting up “working class” (or, worse still, “white working class”) as an identity.

“Differences of age and sex have no longer any distinctive social validity for the working class. All are instruments of labour, more or less expensive to use, according to their age and sex”. (Marx and Engels, the Communist Manifesto).​

This is not saying that class is an identity and “more important” than “age or sex”; it is saying that capitalism has resulted in social structures that place us - all identities together - in a particular economic relationship. Age and sex (and we would now add race and sexuality and gender identity and so on) are a different thing to that economic relationship. Arguing which is “more important” is like arguing whether apples are more important than gravity. It’s not a discussion even worth having. It’s not a discussion any reasonable person is having.

It is important to reiterate here that I’m not suggesting that class structure is a thing and identities aren’t; I’m suggesting they’re different things. Different sorts of things.

Nor am I saying that identity is unimportant: identity is an essential part of what it is to be human. We cannot be without it. Nor am I saying the struggles I referred to above (the sight against bigotry and racism, against sexism and misogyny, against homophobia and transphobia, and so on) are unimportant. Far from it. Those struggles are vital, those causes are just, and they must be supported not diminished. And it should be pointed out that there is nothing that I gain from class struggle that doesn’t apply to everyone.

The question I want to ask is the best way of going about fighting those oppressions, and whether identitypolitics is helpful or counterproductive.

So how did we come to a point where identitypolitics has replaced structural analysis?

This blogpost offers a worthwhile perspective:


“Roots of this can be found in neoliberalism and its agenda of dissolving society into individuals and commodities. Of course, neoliberalism does not dissolve classes within production or the division of labour, but it dissolves the political potential of the working class through the individualisation of class. Which is why the left of today, in its inability to cope with the complete destruction of its historical counterpart through the 20th century, has decided to turn towards ideology and strategies of the far right, with its emphasis on the individual, its identity, ethnic romanticism and defence of culture and has replaced the class with it. The class interest of the working class is not what drives the left politics of today as the working class is viewed mainly as one of the ‘underdog’ identities.”

(Tzadik) “American Thought”: from theoretical barbarism to intellectual decadence


So, for me, despite its origins in decent endeavour, identitypolitics is not now of the left. It is not socialist (even in the broadest sense). It is not an opposition to structures of oppression, because it doesn’t tackle those structures. But, further than that, it belongs alongside other reactionary and biological determinist viewpoints, because it uses biology to divide us, it apportions responsibility according to biology and identity, and in using the ideas of the reactionary right, ends up only serving the purposes of the ruling class.


There are other points and arguments that I could have covered but have decided to leave for the forthcoming discussion.
Would it be rude to ask you to be more concise?
I disagree with identity politics, but we now have Hollywood stars coming out against "white privilege".
Presumably this means white, heterosexual men?
This only leads onto one road.
Or does the liberal left wish to drown in its own cess pool
 
Would it be rude to ask you to be more concise?

I made several other posts on the thread. Maybe one of them is more to your taste.
I disagree with identity politics, but we now have Hollywood stars coming out against "white privilege".
Presumably this means white, heterosexual men?
This only leads onto one road.
Or does the liberal left wish to drown in its own cess pool
Would you care to be more precise? What road and why?
 
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