Now I am thinking about it, Odrade (desperately avoiding despair and recrimination over my awful shrivelled allotment), it occurs to me that the idea of a 'patriarchy' is also a bit troubling (to me). I mean, I understand the term as a sort of catch-all reference to the vast inequalities of power/gender...and a historical positioning of women as the subaltern sex...but I don't actually consider myself to be living under a patriarchy... or find it that useful as a reference for political engagement tbh.
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
- Thread starter danny la rouge
- Start date
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
No. Although it could do with the imagination to realise there might be women who aren't middle class.
I’m at a family event, while nursing a recuperating daughter, and don’t have time to explain yet again what I’ve already explained many times on this thread and elsewhere. But here’s an interview which does so:
The problem with identity politics
Here is a selection of my previous posts:
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
The Alt-Right
Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.
post-modernism, cultural relativity and identity politics - attitudes of progressives
And in brief conclusion: identitypolitics as I’m criticising it is not just a synonym for anti-racism + feminism + anti-homophobia (etc). But, as I predicted in my OP, it has become so synonymous with those things that people imagine that to critique identitypolitics is to actually be in favour of racism and sexism and so on. This has been the reaction time and again in the thread.
But identitypolitics is not the feminism of the 60s, nor the civil rights movement of that era, nor the post-Stonewall gay movement. Those movements had social agendas, with aims and goals. Instead, indentitypolitics substitutes individualism for social agendas, and substitutes vagueness for values, and substitutes essentialism for radicalism ( Mistaken identity | Eurozine ), and has become a platform whereby “community leaders” lobby to be accepted into the establishment, where we’re all supposed to be delighted that a women is paid £130k, as if that’s a victory for all women. Instead of solidarity and coalition, we have the bastardisation of intersectionality into a form of identity top trumps, where the only way to be radical is to use your own identity as a badge to atomise your group of comrades, where class analysis is dismissed as another identity, and all of which enables the neoliberal elite to have neutered the activism and co-opted identitypolitics.
On top of that, language, tropes, behaviours born in the US environment have been transported wholesale to the UK, where they are now being regurgitated, out of their original contexts, in a feminist bookgroup near you.
If none of that applies to you, then I don’t mean you. If it doesn’t apply to your favourite writer, I don’t mean your favourite writer. If it doesn’t apply to your activist group, I don’t mean your activist group. But it’s real, it exists, and has been experienced by people contributing to this thread. Examples have been given.
I’m needed elsewhere now, but I hope that’s enough to go on.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I was trying to write an essay looking at educational provision for young people with autism from a critical (Marxish) position the other day, focussing particularly on schools' roles as sites of social reproduction and how that relates to autism...and couldn't find any literature on it. Got feedback from my marker suggesting it was a poor choice of topic as no one has done any work on it.
Hmm.
May try again though.
Could you explain a bit more?
Was there nothing in the Disability and Society journal?
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
I've yet to hear anyone on this thread explain it in a clear or adequate way.
As for having alliances with christian conservatives, well, sometimes you want to put a stop to the sex industry, or you want to extend maternity leave, and in these cases they are your allies. At other times you want to ensure the right to abortion, and these people are youre opponents, and the liberal feministis, that are against extended maternity leave and pro the sex industry, are your allies. As for the concern about housing and education and so on, the one and only way to put this to rights is labour unions. Feminism, or what you chose to call "identity politics", does not impede labour unions. ' This whole thing where you cannot do politics if it is not pure, and anti-capitalist, well, there is no pure thing in this world. If you want abortion rigths, do the work, and build the necessary alliances. This just happened in Ireland. They were not shy about building alliances accross any pile they possibly could, and more power to them.
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Athos
Well-Known Member
Have you read Danny's posts and links?
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Well people have posted quite long posts explaining how they understand class from a socialist perspective. If you don't find those clear or adequate (TBH I'm not sure what you mean by that) fine, but if you want people to clarify and/or expand things you need to say what it is specifically you think is unclear or disagree with and why.
redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
I might be, and indeed have been, part of groups containing conservatives and/or liberals but to suggest that socialists ally with conservatives/liberals I can't agree with.
Whatever perspective socialists took on the EU Referendum it's crazy to argue that they should have allied with either of the official campaigns - both were utterly regressive. And I can't agree that whatever their perspective on the sex industry any socialist should be allying with Christian conservatives, again to do so would be regressive. The objections of the religious right to the sex industry are not on the same basis as the criticisms of sex industry that socialists (should) make. Now socialists will end up next to conservative/liberal groups sometimes that's unavoidable, but allying with them, no effing way.
EDIT: Or to take another very pertinent example - Israel. I, like many socialists, am strongly opposed to the actions of the Israeli state (personally I support boycotts) but the idea that socialists should ally with Islamist groups is both disgusting and absolutely nuts. The anti-semitism that is creeping into some on "the left" is precisely because some have been too willing to ally with groups they not only should have never touched with a bargepole but have been actively criticising.
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chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
Explain what? My essay topic? My field of interest? Not finding literature? Happy to ramble on!
Nothing came up in my searches. Doesn't mean it's not there of course, but I couldn't find it if so!
My lecturer/marker knew of nothing either.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
I understand that Capital vol 1 is a significant commitment, and so I'm happy to elucidate when I can. But I do kind of think that people coming to a forum called Theory & Philosophy ought to at least try reading the Communist Manifesto for themselves before proclaiming Marx doesn't cover unemployment, precariousness and all the other things he actually does cover in that basic text.
Your essay topic!
Exactly. It seems that sections of the left still operate in a time warp in the sense that they still think that the ruling class is ultra socially conservative and that any dissent against it is some big blow against the system. Nothing could be further from the truth and on the whole social liberalism, not social conservatism is now the ruling ideology of the elite. Any why not, the former is much more suited to creating a culture of individualism that atomises people from one another as well as the potential of new markets to exploit and more profits.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
So my intention was to look at how schools are sites of social reproduction - specifically the maintenance of inequality - and the role role of the acquisition of social and cultural capital in this, and then how this applies in provision for autistic young people, .and what impact ASD specific factors and interventions might have on the process of social reproduction.
But without papers to draw upon it was all a bit speculative and essentially "what I might research at some point in the future if I get to the position to be able to do original research on it" type of thing. Which wasn't really what they wanted from the essay.
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Sounds very interesting, I'd like to hear more about your ideas.
I appreciate the thorough answer to my question. One of these days I will do you the same courtesy. But it may take some time.
You are surely as pure as the fresh snow on the first of december. And as useless. In my line of activism, and at work, I actually do engage in solidarity work in Gaza. How are you going to do that? I cannot do that without cooperating whith the elected representatives of the people of Gaza. These people are not that great. They are clearly anti-semites. This is not ideal, in any way, but it is what it is, and it is not something that I can or should decide. Where I am at we are doing solidarity work in Palestine. In my line of work we are engaged in a lot of efforts on the Gaza-strip. We are training people to deal with bombs and attacks, we are equping fishers, we do political training sessions for women and youth. But if Hamas are anti-semites (they are), all of this is in your opinion wrong? You English people should probarbly look your Kipling in the eye from time to time, and take some lessons from it in that believing yourselves to be the pure rigthiousness of the world is a terrible, brutal place to be. We should not and do not control every circomstance of everything. Solidarity is still possible, even though the circumstances are not pure. They never are.
You people, the brunt of you on this thread, do not seem, to me, to be doing politics. You appear to be doing Live-Action-Role-Playing-Games. Which is probably fine, and it does no real damage to anyone to sit around playing Dungeons and Dragons. It is nice that you have a hobby. But this suff is not politics.
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redsquirrel
This Machine Kills Progressives
Lovely. If not allying with misogynistic, homophobic anti-semites is purity then I'm proud to be pure, but of course it's not. Not allowing anti-semitic crap to pass unchallenged is not being pure, not acquiescing in sex-segregated political meetings is not being pure, it's having some political convictions and being willing to fight for them in the hope of a better world.
Anyone with even the slightest familiarity of history should know that my enemies enemy is my friend leads only to betrayals and disaster (as well as being morally repugnant on it's own terms). I've already given the example of anti-semitism, and from just the recent past I could cite the Respect debacle, but a quick look at either the Brexit and/or Trump thread is enough to show the dead end that allying with anybody leads to. We have people approvingly quoting Tory ex-ministers, the IMF/WTO/World Bank, economists, the FBI, the CIA, posting links to far right shit, etc - this is utter nonsense.
There's a very great difference between allying with a group and either working alongside it or cooperating with it. Nobody has said that socialists shouldn't work alongside non-socialist groups or individuals, how deep the co-operation should be is often a strategic and tactical question and will vary on circumstances.
To take a relatively modern example, the Stop the War Coalition (StWC) had a high proportion of socialists in it's membership but was initially conceived as a cross party political group. There was nothing wrong with that, the aim (initially) was to get the widest participation possible. However, as time went on I'd argue that StWC was too willing to ally with groups that should not have, both limiting the actions it was willing to endorse (marches from A to B, no NVDA) and not taking a tough enough line with people with dodgy politics.
I absolutely agree and have never argued otherwise. But solidarity does not mean throwing away any socialist politics in order to ally with groups that are at a fundamental level opposed (often violently) to socialism.
Well considering that you've no idea what activities people on this board/thread are involved in this seems pretty arrogant. But what is politics to you then?
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Isn't there a difference too between getting something done and sharing a platform on a wider matter? Obviously in local politics you can end up with strange temporary alliances and in situations of dire international necessities you work with whoever can facilitate your purposes.
But when it's something more nebulous I do find it odd to see
"Campaign for more something-or-other for whatever-they-are. With speakers E. Smith (Con), J. Brown (Labour), F. Garcia (Lib Dem), S. Murphy (Greens) W. McDonald (Workers' 4th International Fraction)". These are people with such cleavage lines and so many ideological differences between them but they line up with each other, with people who they wouldn't have in their house.
But when it's something more nebulous I do find it odd to see
"Campaign for more something-or-other for whatever-they-are. With speakers E. Smith (Con), J. Brown (Labour), F. Garcia (Lib Dem), S. Murphy (Greens) W. McDonald (Workers' 4th International Fraction)". These are people with such cleavage lines and so many ideological differences between them but they line up with each other, with people who they wouldn't have in their house.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
I guess when you think about volunteers and medics in conflict zones and areas that have been hit by disasters, they go in to rescue folk, whatever their belief systems. It's the human thing to do.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
except they likelihood is they would - lots of friendships in the HoC across political lines, and chances are they'll all have economic interests in commmon (including the senior academic/top union bureaucrat/ex-public school boy turned revolutionary from the W4IF)
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
That's really not a worthy comment. The truth is that identity politics is a fissure line in contemporary activism. (The thread has examples from personal experience, including mine). It does need to be addressed. For you to use the defence that people you perceive to be on the other side of the fissure are by definition not doing "real" politics may be a handy semantic get out, but it's just that: an empty insult.
danny la rouge
More like *fanny* la rouge!
For the record: I don't put sugar on my porridge.
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
Often stuff that's not in the place they actually live too - the real struggle is always somewhere else.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I'll dig out my notes at some point. It might be a while though as I'm "on holiday". Do remind me though as I'd be interested to discuss this stuff and I suspect will carry on looking at it.
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