Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[andysays]

For the record: I don't put sugar on my porridge.

But do you actively IDENTIFY as someone who doesn't put sugar on their porridge and base your political activity around this, or is it merely an aspect of your individual preferences which places no restrictions on your ability to work with those of us who DO put sugar on our porridge?

(Obviously, no one sensible would work with anyone who puts salt on their porridge, they should be shunned like the pariahs they are)

 

[killer b]

But do you actively IDENTIFY as someone who doesn't put sugar on their porridge and base your political activity around this, or is it merely an aspect of your individual preferences which places no restrictions on your ability to work with those of us who DO put sugar on our porridge?

I wonder how useful this kind of stuff is.

 

[DotCommunist]

AD&D/similar is not LARP, I know that its become the fashionable political insult from radical liberals but there is a significant difference.

 

[Edie]

To be fair Odrade is totally right about me. This stuff is totally theoretical for me. I’m a single mum to teenage boys who works a full time rota that includes nights. I bearly have time to clean my own house let alone do anything political And even if I did have time I wouldn’t know what to do. What would the cause be?

If you look at the Tommy Robinson stuff, even though I know it’s far right at it’s base, there’s anger there and a reason. That people feel silenced and ignored, about immigration, child abuse, left wing identity politics, anger at the elite. It’s all twisted to their own racist agenda, I get that, but the rage about the actual issues isn’t necessarily right wing it’s being co-opted by them.

 

[Edie]

Also Odrade wtf do you do

 

[DotCommunist]

seriously the 'I bled in gaza, what did you do' line wound me up when I was 22 and age has not improved it in the slightest, struggle tourism as badge of authenticity. I don't mean to knock the work of people doing what they can but jesus. Get off your horse and drink your milk

 

[ManchesterBeth]

You English people should probarbly look your Kipling in the eye from time to time, and take some lessons from it in that believing yourselves to be the pure rigthiousness of the world is a terrible, brutal place to be. We should not and do not control every circomstance of everything. Solidarity is still possible, even though the circumstances are not pure. They never are.

lol english! please continue sugarplum!

 

[Edie]

seriously the 'I bled in gaza, what did you do' line wound me up when I was 22 and age has not improved it in the slightest, struggle tourism as badge of authenticity. I don't mean to knock the work of people doing what they can but jesus. Get off your horse and drink your milk

Wow. That’s a lot of hatred for someone who sounds like they are doing something pretty fucking brave and admirable?

 

[chilango]

To be fair Odrade is totally right about me. This stuff is totally theoretical for me. I’m a single mum to teenage boys who works a full time rota that includes nights. I bearly have time to clean my own house let alone do anything political And even if I did have time I wouldn’t know what to do. What would the cause be?

That is all political.

And a far more important location/site of politics than the spectacular militancy of the activist.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

hamas isn't above using force against strikes, either.

 

[Steel Icarus]

That is all political.

And a far more important location/site of politics than the spectacular militancy of the activist.

Exactly. The bloke who lives next door who asked when he moved in if he could put our bin out when he does his and does it every fortnight - that's political. Me giving my used but still valid dayrider bus ticket to strangers is political. It's not exclusively big flashy gestures, internet petitions or old blokes in suits.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Wow. That’s a lot of hatred for someone who sounds like they are doing something pretty fucking brave and admirable?

It's not what he says he's doing, more that everyone who isn't doing the same is playing at it. Despite not knowing anything about the political activities of those on Urban. It's patronising bullshit and from a position of privilege - some of us like you say have families/jobs/responsibilities that mean that kind of Big Activism just isn't feasible, even if we were otherwise equipped to do it.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

and those not equipped? by odrade's standards they are just dungeons and dragons players.

Or is it going to be the condescending this is not for you bollocks, you can't ever be political.

 

[mojo pixy]

It's also a shit way to debate. I've been to Gaza so my thoughts mean more! On the subject of Israeli occupation and actions in Gaza, yes. On anything else, no, not necessarily.

Plus look, this thread is about ID politics .. and the rift between Hamas and Fatah, the main reason why Palestinian solidarity is so hard to achieve on the ground there, is to do with Palestinian ID politics.

ffs.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

It's also a shit way to debate. I've been to Gaza so my thoughts mean more! On the subject of Israeli occupation and actions in Gaza, yes. On anything else, no, not necessarily.

Plus look, this thread is about ID politics .. and the rift between Hamas and Fatah, the main reason why Palestinian solidarity is so hard to achieve on the ground there, is to do with Palestinian ID politics.

ffs.

It has more to do with the left wing ideology of 'national (self) determination' i think.

 

[Edie]

It's not what he says he's doing, more that everyone who isn't doing the same is playing at it. Despite not knowing anything about the political activities of those on Urban. It's patronising bullshit and from a position of privilege - some of us like you say have families/jobs/responsibilities that mean that kind of Big Activism just isn't feasible, even if we were otherwise equipped to do it.

I see what you are saying here, although I don’t think that was his motivation (her motivation?).

 

[Steel Icarus]

Maybe not, but it came across as condescending

 

[chilango]

Intentional or not, it is a useful illustration of a certain mentality that occurs.

 

[DotCommunist]

Wow. That’s a lot of hatred for someone who sounds like they are doing something pretty fucking brave and admirable?

gaza boasting at 1 am because they didn't like the direction of conversation. And it was absolutely used to establish an authenticity, then call everyone else LARP cunts. I can read tone pretty damn well (if I may blow my own trumpet), and that post was pure arch middle class snottiness. Glass of wine, 1 am. 'You people, you lumpens. Get a fucking kipling reference in'

 

[purenarcotic]

You people, the brunt of you on this thread, do not seem, to me, to be doing politics. You appear to be doing Live-Action-Role-Playing-Games. Which is probably fine, and it does no real damage to anyone to sit around playing Dungeons and Dragons. It is nice that you have a hobby. But this suff is not politics.

This is quite a shitty perspective. Quite apart from the fact that you have no idea what people on this thread do politically, not everyone is able to get out and about to do things. Doing things online has a value, talking to people on discussion forums has a value. My thoughts have changed and developed a lot over the years thanks to reading what posters have put here. If we don’t talk to each other then nothing changes.

 

[8ball]

Now I am thinking about it, Odrade (desperately avoiding despair and recrimination over my awful shrivelled allotment), it occurs to me that the idea of a 'patriarchy' is also a bit troubling (to me). I mean, I understand the term as a sort of catch-all reference to the vast inequalities of power/gender...and a historical positioning of women as the subaltern sex...but I don't actually consider myself to be living under a patriarchy... or find it that useful as a reference for political engagement tbh.

That's because you are living under the patriarchy.

 

[Idaho]

I see what you are saying here, although I don’t think that was his motivation (her motivation?).

From the name, a her. If she is an Atreides.

 

[Sunset Tree]

gaza boasting at 1 am because they didn't like the direction of conversation. And it was absolutely used to establish an authenticity, then call everyone else LARP cunts. I can read tone pretty damn well (if I may blow my own trumpet), and that post was pure arch middle class snottiness. Glass of wine, 1 am. 'You people, you lumpens. Get a fucking kipling reference in'

You saw it coming a mile off, constant references to how well-read they were on feminist literature, as if that assertion alone wins the debate.

True radicalism is middle-classes joining an NGO.

 

[Sunset Tree]

At uni I met a lot of people for whom radicalism was travelling to a distant lands to provide charity. Privileged kids who spent their summers building toilet blocks in Africa. Never considered these types as a genuine source of radical politics. I did some volunteering in the third sector and there's loads of those types. They mean well but are coming at things from a position of privilege and it shows.

 

[8ball]

At uni I met a lot of people for whom radicalism was travelling to a distant lands to provide charity. Privileged kids who spent their summers building toilet blocks in Africa. Never considered these types as a genuine source of radical politics. I did some volunteering in the third sector and there's loads of those types. They mean well but are coming at things from a position of privilege and it shows.

It's just a larval form of PwC drone.

No political significance.

 

[Edie]

Let’s get beyond that tho to the actual point she was making, which I thinks valid. And that is that sometimes to get stuff changed you end up working with or alongside people’s whose political views you don’t 100% agree with. Loki in his article actually made a similar point, that it’s necessarily to concede some issues, recognise that others might have a different POV but the same goal, but work together anyway.

 

[krtek a houby]

I couldn't tell if the poster was a woman/middle class/whatever etc.

I just thought they were a volunteer or medic - when the rescuers/ambulances/emergency services come to help you/stop you from dying I don't imagine someone's beliefs or politics are the main issue discussed?

 

[ice-is-forming]

I work for a humanitarian organisation, we have to be neutral politically.. And tbh being neutral is one of the most difficult things I've ever had to be. If we're not neutral we can't do the work, but at what point does being neutral make you the enemy..and at what point do you risk no longer being able to actually make a real difference in people's lives because you've had to stand up for your values.

It's a complex area to work in when youre not allowed to be political, but it absolutely gets results.. We actually have to spend a lot of time training to be neutral and impartial and we study ihl to really nail it. I often think it's like being in a cult and I'll probably need an intervention at some point...

However it does seem that if you can keep it up for long enough governments of all flavours come to trust you and invite your counsel

 

[LDC]

Let's not go down the path of confusing humanitarian work with revolutionary politics, nor activism with revolutionary politics.

 

[krtek a houby]

Let's not go down the path of confusing humanitarian work with revolutionary politics, nor activism with revolutionary politics.

Surely there's a lot of overlap?