Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

[danny la rouge]

gsv's family tear their challah on shabbat, my family cuts a slice)

You ain’t no challah hent girl.

 

[hitmouse]

'Minchag' is definitely an interesting concept, and one that varies right down to households (gsv's family tear their challah on shabbat, my family cuts a slice)

philosophical - to boil it down, there is this famous story of Rabbi Hillel:

I always like that story, especially because of the way that Shammai's contribution makes the point that "go away and stop bothering me with stupid questions" is an entirely valid way to respond to someone asking you to teach them the entire Torah.

 

[Cloo]

Shammai Does Not Have Time For Your Shit.

 

[philosophical]

'Minchag' is definitely an interesting concept, and one that varies right down to households (gsv's family tear their challah on shabbat, my family cuts a slice)

philosophical - to boil it down, there is this famous story of Rabbi Hillel:

My initial instinct would be to say 'Sounds good, but the Torah is man made, have you got anything else?'

 

[8ball]

You ain’t no challah hent girl.

I am totally lost with yoof speak nowadays.

 

[danny la rouge]

I am totally lost with yoof speak nowadays.

It’s a desperate attempt at a Gwen Stefani pun.

 

[8ball]

It’s a desperate attempt at a Gwen Stefani pun.

Zoomed about 200 feet over my head.

 

[hitmouse]

Zoomed about 200 feet over my head.

Tbf, that shit was pretty bananas.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Tbf, that shit was pretty bananas.

No doubt

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Looooool car crash tv at its finest. You love to see it

 

[splonkydoo]

Looooool car crash tv at its finest. You love to see it

Just goes to show how identity politics can wreck people's brains on both sides of the extreme. Years ago that Lindsey might have had some intelligible points to make, but consequently his life has been consumed by a singular debate and drifted in with a very conservative set prone to conspiratorial thinking. Quite strange and sad to see people get stuck so far down the rabbit hole - reminds me of some brief but dark moments I've had with my eyes firmly stuck on the twitterspehere/culture wars stuff. In the end, it does nobody any good to become so obsessed with this shit (unless some type of gift is part of your end goal)

 

[krtek a houby]

Always suspicious of anyone who says they don't watch telly

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Is being Jewish a matter of religion, or in some way a matter of race? Or is it a mixture of the two and if so in what proportions?
If a person converts to Judaism for religious reasons, would they then be a victim of anti-semitism if it is round and about?
Or is it a matter of culture, like if you are a recent convert you’re not quite as Jewish as a person from a family where the religious observance goes back for generations?

There's an episode of Seinfeld that deals with this - the one where his dentist converts to Judaism and immediately starts making Jewish jokes.

 

[philosophical]

Never seen Seinfeld.

 

[Santino]

Never seen Seinfeld.

There's a great episode about the Irish border.

 

[Pickman's model]

Always suspicious of anyone who says they don't watch telly

And rightly so

 

[krtek a houby]

Never seen Seinfeld.

It's a show about nothing

 

[hitmouse]

Has anyone read/is anyone planning on reading this?

Fractured

Identity politics has been a smear for decades. The right use it to lament the loss of free speech, while many on the left bemoan it as the end of class poli...

www.plutobooks.com

12 Rules just interviewed the authors, if anyone feels like listening to a podcast interview with them.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Has anyone read/is anyone planning on reading this?

Fractured

Identity politics has been a smear for decades. The right use it to lament the loss of free speech, while many on the left bemoan it as the end of class poli...

www.plutobooks.com

12 Rules just interviewed the authors, if anyone feels like listening to a podcast interview with them.

One of them seems quite decent on Twitter and the interview on that podcast was pretty good so I may well give the book a go.

 

[brixtonscot]

My initial understanding of what has become known as Identity Politics was from when I first became active in left wing politics in 1970’s.
It was in support of the autonomous political activity of ( for example ) women , gay & black people in determining their own liberation as part of a wider movement for liberation - ie. a contributory collective part of a means to an end.

It was not unproblematic then , as this quote from gay historian and activist Jeffrey Weeks notes , writing in 1978 -
“… what is the relationship between these autonomous groupings and the wider struggle, especially that of the working class, for socialism ?
https://files.libcom.org/files/Hocquenghem - Homosexual Desire.pdf

Since that time much of what is now called Identity Politics has been appropriated to primarily become self-centred competitive individualist aspirations for some to be assimilated within the unchallenged conservative mainstream - ie. as an end in itself.

Excerpt from introduction to Fractured
‘The personal is the political may produce radical individualism, the political is personal produces a radical society.’

This gets us to the nub of the identity problem: what working-class vantage points and perspectives were innovated by participants who brought their own personal experiences to them? If they became overshadowed and overpowered by conformist trends and identity-thinking – nationalism, careerism, sectarianism – how did this occur?

These same questions should be applied to socialist movements which, Sivanandan acknowledges, repressed the kind of expanded analytical frames that feminist enquiries innovated.

This matters not because bad actors need rooting out, but because we can understand more concretely how liberal societies are constituted by fracture: polarisation is nothing new, on the contrary, it is the point.

Fractured
https://s3.amazonaws.com/supadu-imgix/plutopress-uk/pdfs/look-inside/LI-9780745346564.pdf

 

[brixtonscot]

From Rhyd Wildermuth

Identity is How Capitalism Intends to Perpetuate Itself​

Identity politics as the new capitalist cosmology​

“ I tend to agree more with the conservative writer John Gray that social justice identity politics is functioning as a “successor” ideology to neoconservativism, and with black Marxist Adolph Reed that it’s the core moral constellation of neoliberalism. Though coming from apparently different political traditions, they—and quite a few others—are essentially arguing the same thing: identity is how capitalism intends to perpetuate itself.”

Identity is How Capitalism Intends to Perpetuate Itself

Identity politics as the new capitalist cosmology

rhyd.substack.com

 

[Brainaddict]

I think this is really interesting. In one way a critique of shallow identity politics, it creates room for a more sophisticated take on it, in which the material structures available to people in different subject positions are what we should be focusing on, rather than any politics of representation: Elite Capture and Epistemic Deference - Olufemi O. Taiwo

It also talks about how trauma is most often debilitating rather than purifying. It's a difficult thing to talk about in real life when you are sitting in a room with people with trauma arising in part from their social position. In fact while I suspect he's right I have no idea how I would talk about it in public.

Has anyone else read his book yet? I saw Taiwo talk the other day and he was a bit reluctant to talk about practical organising solutions arising from his critique, so I'd like to see more practical offerings come out of his critique, perhaps written by other people.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I'm about half way through "Fractured" and am enjoying it. There are some very good points in there about the working class having always been, erm, fractured which is in opposition to the idea that pesky identity politics is somehow getting in the way of an idealised united working class. There's a great chapter on the importance of the perspective of black feminists and the ongoing usefulness of their contributions.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

“When we ask for more equality they give us more diversity”

New book with a collection of essays by Reed and Michaels “No Politics, but Class Politics”

‘These writings eschew the sloppy thinking and moral posturing that too often characterise discussions of race and class in favour of clear-eyed social, cultural and historical analysis. Reed and Michaels make the case here for a genuinely radical politics: a politics which aspires not to the establishment of a demographically representative social elite, but instead to economic justice for everyone’

No Politics but Class Politics | Columbia University Press

Denouncing racism and celebrating diversity have become central to progressive politics. For many on the left, it seems, social justice would consist of an e... | CUP

cup.columbia.edu

 

[Sue]

“When we ask for more equality they give us more diversity”

New book with a collection of essays by Reed and Michaels “No Politics, but Class Politics”

‘These writings eschew the sloppy thinking and moral posturing that too often characterise discussions of race and class in favour of clear-eyed social, cultural and historical analysis. Reed and Michaels make the case here for a genuinely radical politics: a politics which aspires not to the establishment of a demographically representative social elite, but instead to economic justice for everyone’

No Politics but Class Politics | Columbia University Press

Denouncing racism and celebrating diversity have become central to progressive politics. For many on the left, it seems, social justice would consist of an e... | CUP

cup.columbia.edu

Mentioned here by Kenan Malik:

Focusing on diversity means we miss the big picture. It’s class that shapes our lives | Kenan Malik

In shifting our gaze from equality, we lose sight of the most marginalised

www.theguardian.com

 

[danny la rouge]

I have Malik’s latest in my bedside pile waiting to be read too.

 

[RainbowTown]

That was a good, fair and well balanced piece by Malik. A rarity in The Guardian.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

That was a good, fair and well balanced piece by Malik. A rarity in The Guardian.

Yeah, an interesting article. His latest is good aswell.

 

[brixtonscot]

Pascal Robert of This Is Revolution podcast on ID politics &

Critiquing Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò's Theory of Elite Capture​

 

[hitmouse]

Pascal Robert of This Is Revolution podcast on ID politics &

Critiquing Olúfẹ́mi O. Táíwò's Theory of Elite Capture​

That does sound interesting - is there any chance of a summary of the argument, or do I just need to watch the thing myself?