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Identity Politics: the impasse, the debate, the thread.

I'm not sure this is the place, etc, but a person I respected hugely when I was in my late teens died over the weekend. They were principal of a residential school for handicapped children, run by a national charity. i was part of a group that started a venture scout group at the school. It was a wonderful experience. The principal‘s view was that we could try anything. It was pre-risk assessment days but we’d think what might go wrong and how we could deal with it, and how many professional staff would be needed. By the late 80s institutionalized kids tended to have increasingly learning difficulties combined with a physical handicap. Starting of with the presumption that everyone would do every was the way we arranged things. Initially kids were scared if a wheelchair was lifted off the ground…a few months later we are all abseiling at Malham Cove. We pushed wheeel chairs to the top of one Yorkshire’s 3 peaks.

I think most institutions like that have closed, which is probably not a bad thing, but I wonder what support families get. I hope there is still an attitude of concentrating on what people can do persists. I think labels are unimportant as long as you don’t define people by them. I remember seeing reserved parking at an airport at Port of Spain for the “differently abled”, which seemed laboured.

I also had an interesting chat with a new colleague this evening as they were trying to fill in the annual appraisal. It never occurred to me ADHD might effect the way you conceptualized the future, and hence all that goals bullshit your supposed to fill in. I learned something new.

sorry, I’m rambling. A former flat mate died yesterday too.
 
I take your point AnnO'Neemus but I guess my issue with ‘the social model’ is it has become a bit of a brand/mantra which has been used to
entrepreneurs to make money, by governments to tighten benefit sanctions and by a depressing number of silly sausages on Twitter to have beefs with ransoms about. I was never in favour of the first two and as much fun as the third was in the past, everything in the world is telling us that we need to calm things down not endlessly rile each other up. Not that I mean that anyone who talks about ‘the social model’ is looking for a pointless ruck, but if it’s playing out that way we do need to reflect on whether we’re actually saving lives or fuelling the apocalypse.

Also, why is it ‘the social model’. Why can there only be one?
 
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'Disabled person' is a bit passé anyway. 'Person with a disability' is more usual now. The point is the disability is separate from the person. Which is a good thing to recognise IMO.
Not sure that's the current thing. I believe it is "identity first". "Disabled person", because you would never talk about a "person with blackness", "a woman with lesbianism" etc. That's the syntax we tend to use with afflictions. I support this approach.

Also: "autistic person" etc. If it's not a disease or a passing annoyance, it is not something they are "with".
 
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we do need be honest as well that the idpol faction are chose to act to accelerate the camps (and there’s a lot more supremacism being persued by rhe idpollers than they like to acknowledge - it’s not a coincidence that they’re endlessly calling people thick, stupid, boneheaded idiotic ‘tards. Or that they repeatedly refused to have any solidarity with those who in reality are light years more marginalised than they are, whilst those people were dying horrendous deaths)

The anti-idpol faction is also evil, there’s no argument from me there. They are also endlessly go on about retards (and all sorts of horrible stuff as well all know) and they were the ones who killed god knows how many people disabled people with their mad selfishensss over vaccines and masks
 
Not sure that's the current thing. I believe it is "identity first". "Disabled person", because you would never talk about a "person with blackness", "a woman with lesbianism" etc. That's the syntax we tend to use with afflictions. I support this approach.

Also: "autistic person" etc. If it's not a disease or a passing annoyance, it is not something they are "with".

Do you work in social care? What terminology are you encouraged to use?
 
Nonsite are running a series of essays on Bayard Rustin and a new essay by Adolf Reed Jr.

Well worth a read on the politics of time and space between the civil rights movement of the 1960's and what Reed identifies as the hegemony of the
"institutional consolidation of the ethnic interest-group regime". As Reed notes, Rustin laterly underwent a rightward shift but his class based analysis between 1965-75 stands in stark contrast to the race-reductionists who have "rejected political analysis anchored by historical specificity in favor of an abstract idealism in which there is no meaningful or authentic political differentiation among black Americans, and race/racism exhausts the totality of black political life."

 
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Hardly. A few neuro-diverse employees in an overwhelmingly neurotypical organisation aren't going to make any difference. I can testify to this from personal experience.
I’m sorry for your experience and I know many adults (and kids for that matter) would share it, but neurodivergent employees absolutely can make a difference. I’m a lone psychologist with ADHD in a paediatric medical team and am regularly the first person to identify possible neurodivergence in my patients, have those initial conversations with them and their parents/carers (from a balanced perspective of neurodiversity and disability), to make robustly written referrals for assessment and advocate for them if they’re initially lost or rejected, to work therapeutically with them in as tailored way as possible (including during those long assessment waiting lists), to support families with the school process etc. Not to mention influencing the trainees who work with me and my acute health team colleagues.

No all of that won’t erase shitty experiences with other services but it does definitely make a difference to my patients, and there will be other professionals and services out there offering similar support. But yes, it will only be happening in pockets and more wide scale change needs to be happening. So we need more ND professionals.
Briefly on why although I’m autistic amongst other stuff, I don’t like the ND term. Not to be on some anti-woke rant: but because 1) it doesn’t match my reality: there are things that I need support with, and that doesn’t make me better or worse than anyone else, it’s just true, and also, had I been born prior the bloody miracle of modern medicine I would have died in childbirth, and so I think my disablement has pre-social element not just a social element, and that’s also ok; 2) I think owning the the stigma (and pre social element too) helps me to deepen my thoughts on how make the world more egalitarian and less bloody awful and 3) to me the ND term it so clearly has a part the technocratic/populist polarisation (it is very popular on one side of the polarisation and deeply unpopular on the other, and do we really need more of that), and 4) the most important one, is it functions to assert the needs of clever clogs ‘high functioning’ autistics like me (apparently) over those who are more disabled, and as such is actually anti-egalitarian whilst being cloaked in nice fluffy terminology, has quite frankly lethal implications for those ‘below’ me, so on principle I cannot go along with it

Yeah we are expanding on the same point. In reality, the ND movement erases those who are more disabled, both by denying that some people just will need more supper than others (and that’s ok, because we are the good guys remember) and by denying how fucking brutally those who are more disabled are treated in our society
I don’t think the ND movement and the concept of disability are mutually exclusive though? The very simple “ND 101” resource I send to families identifies that the ND paradigm doesn’t mean that there isn’t disability there.

Also I used to think quite similarly about how vocal Autistic disability activists don’t represent non speaking Autistic people but then I came across people like Amy Sequenzia. I know there are massive debates about facilitated communication and whether it allows genuine communication, but I likewise don’t want to throw out the idea it might do. And likewise it’s not like allistic speaking people can speak from these individuals perspectives either. Of course, one thing professional training enables is collecting and synthesising multiple people’s experiences which goes back to my point to Jennaonthebeach - we need more ND professionals.

The perspectives of Autistic adults with additional learning/intellectual disabilities do seem to be missing, but I also remember this debate from working in LD services regarding activist voices with “mild” LD rather than severe or profound. The conclusion I came to is that you need to keep it in mind but it shouldn’t invalidate the voices that are heard.

I also had an interesting chat with a new colleague this evening as they were trying to fill in the annual appraisal. It never occurred to me ADHD might effect the way you conceptualized the future, and hence all that goals bullshit your supposed to fill in. I learned something new.

sorry, I’m rambling. A former flat mate died yesterday too.
Sorry to hear about your old flat mate. :( Thanks for sharing the bit about appraisals though - that’s been a lightbulb moment for me. :)
 
On one level it’s good that some of this stuff gets challenged and debated, because that makes you consider it all more and refine thinking in the areas where it’s needed. But on another level, it’s a shame when the underlying message of listening to the experiences of people who have experiences of marginalisation that you don’t is lost.
 
Agent Sparrow I agree it's important that the voice of non-verbal autistics isn't drowned out by those who do speak.

I think that for many years there was an assumption that those who were non-verbal weren't able to communicate and professionals and families alike were surprised when communication devices enabled some to 'speak'.

So the ability to speak and/or communicate doesn't necessarily directly correlate with ability in terms of intellectual capacity-learning disability/developmental delay.

The issue of 'autism moms' - NeuroTypical mothers of autistic children - is controversial in the #ActuallyAutistic community, in that for many years, the voice and opinion of autism moms drowned out our voices, and in many instances still does.

I have a friend who's an American autism mom (we studied together in London years ago, before she had her child back home), who reacted quite badly to my comments on Facebook about how awfully eugenicist Autism Speaks are in response to a post she made in the early days after her son's diagnosis. I was offended. She was offended. But we agreed to disagree about Autism Speaks, because they were quite helpful and supportive in her local area.

We kept a dialogue going, and over the years, my autism mom friend has become more of an ally and advocate for autistics.

A lot of autism moms start out catastrophising, because of the medical model of disability and medical professionals and Autism Speaks propaganda and their funding research to try to eradicate us from the human population.

But it was my autism mom friend who alerted me to another change in terminology, ie the move from referring to autistics as high-functioning and low-functioning, to having different levels of needs.

I think that's partly because of problematic labelling of people, but also because simply referring to people in terms of their functioning level isn't necessarily useful, because someone who was previously considered to be, ostensibly, 'high-functioning' would probably have previously been considered to have no needs, or very low needs. And there was a lack of perception as to what different levels of support were needed, and what form of support was needed.

And another problem with autism moms is how you end up with the focus on children and children's services and then when those autistic children become autistic adults... * tumbleweed *

Support services aren't in place for autistic adults, we're an afterthought, because pretty much all the support services are aimed at autistic children because of vocal autism moms lobbying on behalf of their children, and for many years that drowned out the voices of #ActuallyAutistic adults.

And, yes, there is the argument that those of us whose flavour of autism isn't non-verbal, doesn't have learning disabilities, don't represent the experiences of those autistics and can't speak for them...

...but the #ActuallyAutistic sentiment/rallying cry of 'Nothing about us without us' is valid.

I mean, can you imagine the situation in a slightly different scenario...

To go back to identities and first person or not, whether someone's a person with disabilities or a disabled person, the medical model of disability versus the social model of disability, whether someone is disabled or whether it is society that dis-ables people by failing to make buildings and services accessible...

...in terms of being autistic, I don't say I have autism, I am autistic. I have a diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome, so I sometimes say I'm Aspie. (Yes, I'm aware that's now problematic, but I don't have a time-machine, it's factually correct, because Asperger's is what's in my medical records, that was my Dx at the time.)

I've often drawn a parallel with LGBT, in that much as you wouldn't say someone 'has homosexuality', wouldn't say someone 'has gay/lesbian/trans' like it's some kind of disease that's separate to the person that they can and should be cured of*, similarly I don't have autism, I am autistic, it's part of who and what I am, it's intrinsic to me being me.

*Of course, for many years, homosexuality was medicalised and cures were attempted, which was abhorrent.

But can you imagine a scenario where the most vocal people in terms of LGBT+ rights were the mothers of LGBT+ people?

I mean, yes, there are organisations to support/inform etc parents of LGBT+ folk, but those parents and organisations aren't at the forefront of LGBT+ rights and I think most people would think it totally absurd if they were.

Although my analogy falls down in that LGBT+ traits don't include learning disabilities or being non-verbal.

But I still think the mic shouldn't be handed over to autism moms - or rather seized by them and held onto by them - in preference to letting autistics speak with their own voices or communication devices. And like I said, it transpired that some autistics who had previously been assumed to be unable to communicate, it turned out they could.

Just like many learning disabled people can communicate and advocate for themselves.

I follow Ciara Lawrence on Twitter, who's an ambassador for Mencap and who presents her pink sparkle podcast.


I suspect in the past, up until fairly recently, the voices of Ciara and people like her would've been drowned out by parents and medical professionals, but social media has given her a platform and amplified her voice, and fair play to her, she's using it very effectively.

But as you point out, there's a similar debate in the learning disabled community about whose voices are valid, with respect to those whose disabilities are mild, severe or profound.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, in terms of ensuring representation for and hearing from everyone, whether autistic or learning disabled or affected by developmental delays, but clearly, consideration needs to be given to their needs and views and their 'voices' need to be heard, of course, it's a question of how and through what channels, through whom?
 
Thread's moved on a bit but I was gonna say re disabled vs person with a disability. Whilst not actually that fussed the former has always struck me as more essentialising. That your personhood is inextricably linked to your disability. The latter representing more of just a facet which should be relevant only when it needs to be.

I'm not entirely down with the social model either really. it's useful so far as a tool to get businesses, organisations, society at large to make reasonable adjustments in order to remedy the waste of human potential in locking disabled people out of the job market. To include disabled people in politics, social activities in a meaningful participatory way. As opposed to your HR department being able to say they're down with inclusiveness and diversity, look we've got the logo, whilst their buildings, website are inaccessible and they don't employ any disabled people...

But the social model isn't the entirety. If for example I walk off a cliff or less fatally, and more commonly :D into a low hanging branch. that isn't cos reasonable adjustments haven't been made, it's the concrete reality of my disability. These realities are part of the experience too.
 
I have to say I don't think it does anyone any favours to make analogies between disability and sexuality. They're quite different things and discrimination against them manifests in quite different ways. Additionally gay people can be disabled, disabled people can be gay, and (tbf as pointed out) there aren't levels of homosexuality in the same way as there are levels of disability.

I'd add that I don't share much personal stuff here so please nobody use this post as an opportunity to make assumptions.
 
Yes that's all true but from my work and training in the health and social care sector I know 'person with a disability' is currently the standard term. The point is to separate the disability from the person.

It may be the standard term still in a lot of workplaces but it's opposed by most Disabled People's Organisations. There's a good explanation why here: Social Model of Disability: Language | Disability Rights UK
 
Hmmm... Yes, I've heard that before too. But the problem with the term is that it still centres the disabled person as being problematic in some way, they're the ones who are different to 'the norm' whatever that is.

That's why I think it's helpful to make the distinctions between the medical model and the social model of disability.

With the medical model, the disability is intrinsic to the disabled person, whereas with the social model, it's society that dis-ables disabled people.

If a house has a level entrance, IE no steps, and if it's a bungalow or has lift access to upper floors, and if doorways are sufficiently wide so as to allow wheelchair to pass through, and if there's a wet room rather than a bath, there's a hoist in the bedroom, if needed, and if counter heights in the kitchen are lowered, and if plug sockets and light switches are at mid height rather than down near the floor and at height, respectively, is that disabled person who happens to be a wheelchair user still disabled?

Yes, they are, unless they never leave their home. The world can and should adapt as far as it can, but there are limits, and, in addition, many disabilities come with features that are medical, not social - pain, heart problems, fatigue, breathing problems, etc etc. A combination of the social and medical models is the only sensible approach - when people (not you, but people I've known and some people who have influence) get evangelical about either, they are showing that they care more about their ideas than about people.

Bear in mind that I'm not exactly on the outside saying this.
 
It may be the standard term still in a lot of workplaces but it's opposed by most Disabled People's Organisations. There's a good explanation why here: Social Model of Disability: Language | Disability Rights UK

To try and explain this in a way people can relate to. Like many people my age I have developed an impairment over the last few years - I struggle to read text. Luckily you can get reading glasses cheaply and easily so it's not a problem to rectify. I don't consider myself a disabled person. If for some reason however reading glasses started to cost thousands of pounds I would become a disabled person - I wouldn't be able to use computers or my phone, it would severely limit the work I could do and how I lived on a day to day basis. In this society I would be a disabled person due to lack of accessibility measures, in the society I live in now I'm not. However I could be classed as a person with disabilities in both types of societies, despite having a vastly different experience.

That's why it's important I think, it reflects the reality of how impairments can be disabling or not (or to a different degree) depending on what measures society takes to alleviate them.
 
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I take your point AnnO'Neemus but I guess my issue with ‘the social model’ is it has become a bit of a brand/mantra which has been used to
entrepreneurs to make money, by governments to tighten benefit sanctions

This isn't strictly true. The DWP adopted the biopsychosocial model and somewhat twisted it in a way which suggested that people's own attitudes may be a part of what limited their participation in the workplace and so those attitudes needed to be changed with sanctions and work capability assessments.
 
More on how the biopsychosocial model was used to justify benefits cuts and sanctions: ‘Biopsychosocial’ basis for benefit cuts is ‘cavalier, unevidenced and misleading’

Key to the BPS model, say the three authors, is the idea that “it is the negative attitudes of many ESA recipients that prevent them from working, rather than their impairment or health condition”, essentially branding many benefit claimants “scroungers”.


This allows supporters of BPS – including a string of Labour and Tory government ministers – to draw a distinction “between ‘real’ incapacity benefit claimants, with long-term and incurable health conditions, and ‘fake’ benefit claimants, with short-term illness”, with the model responsible for a “barely concealed” element of “victim-blaming”.


Shakespeare, Watson and Abu Alghaib say that this distinction “drives media coverage and popular attitudes to disabled people”, by creating this supposed contrast between “the deserving and the undeserving poor”.


They say BPS has been used to “underpin increasingly harsh and at times punitive measures targeted at disabled people” as the state tries to cut the number of people receiving ESA.


Their article, Blaming The Victim, All Over Again: Waddell And Aylward’s Biopsychosocial (BPS) Model Of Disability, is published by the journal Critical Social Policy.


It criticises the willingness of a succession of politicians, such as the welfare reform minister Lord Freud – who has described it in parliament as a “coherent theory” – to base their policies on the BPS.


Alyward left DWP to head Cardiff University’s Centre for Psychosocial and Disability Research, which for four years was sponsored by the US disability insurance giant Unum, a company that once bragged that UK government policy on incapacity benefit reform was “being driven by our thinking”.


The article says the centre has worked “extensively” for the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP).


In one of their articles, Aylward and Waddell say: “As an oversimplification, capacity may be limited by a health condition, but performance is limited by how the person thinks and feels about their health condition.”

This is one of the reasons why the defence of the social model became so ferocious. It wasn't anything to do with identity politics but because the government was attempting to undermine it with a new model as a cover for cutting benefits.
 
It may be the standard term still in a lot of workplaces but it's opposed by most Disabled People's Organisations. There's a good explanation why here: Social Model of Disability: Language | Disability Rights UK

I'm familiar with this, the argument as well as the idea of social model of disability. I've been explaining how certain words are used in my experience and in most social care training material currently used. How words should be used, that's rightly an ongoing discussion.
 
More on how the biopsychosocial model was used to justify benefits cuts and sanctions: ‘Biopsychosocial’ basis for benefit cuts is ‘cavalier, unevidenced and misleading’



This is one of the reasons why the defence of the social model became so ferocious. It wasn't anything to do with identity politics but because the government was attempting to undermine it with a new model as a cover for cutting benefits.
As an aside I am very cross that the BPS model got warped in that way, as more broadly in mental health, the idea of formulating across biological, psychological and social (both support networks and societal) domains is really useful and sensible. It doesn’t even sound like it’s been used correctly, focusing primarily on the psychological and largely ignoring the social.
 
woke up with a thought, not an original one i expect, but here goes:

if you are in a minority group you are classified by the majority/other as such, and therefore your minority status becomes a class.
is the relationship between work classes and ethinic classes and sexuality classes that different?

if a member of the professional managerial class has a structural position of dominance over a member of the working class, then that is acknowledged and understood. sometimes a work position can be a subtle as having been a working class person who becomes a teacher and this class relationship is now painted as not one of helping children grow and develop and understand the world, as the teacher themselves might understand it, but of indoctrinating them into the world of capitalism!

if the above is true how can the relationships between, say, the class of first generation afghani migrants and the class of white british people with several generations of ancestry not be a class relationship. likewise the class of gay men within the wider much more dominant class of heterosexual men and women. all sociological meaningful ways of classifying people.

would it help break the identity politics impasse if people reframed these conversations as a different form of class struggle? relationships of work within the economic system are just one way of classifying people, after all, however important.
 
This isn't strictly true. The DWP adopted the biopsychosocial model and somewhat twisted it in a way which suggested that people's own attitudes may be a part of what limited their participation in the workplace and so those attitudes needed to be changed with sanctions and work capability assessments.

You’re right in what you’re saying here. I’m just trying (if very often failing) to be both/and rather than either/or in my thinking about the appeals and the underlying ideologies and actual real world impacts of both sides of the idpol/anti-idpol polarity, and indeed all the ‘models’ that get sold to us and which so clearly are doing nothing for us.

Ive been thinking about your posts about how the anti-idpollers are using trans people as a useful ‘enemy’ to push for cuts in social resources and to make it even harder for people to assert their needs and preferences within the nhs/social care./welfare/everything else. It’s bloody terrifying isn’t it
 
Ive been thinking about your posts about how the anti-idpollers are using trans people as a useful ‘enemy’ to push for cuts in social resources and to make it even harder for people to assert their needs and preferences within the nhs/social care./welfare/everything else. It’s bloody terrifying isn’t it

I can’t remember where you made these posts but they were very helpful to my thinking, so if you’re happy to re-share them or share anything else about how the anti-idpol faction are working to these ends please do. It’s important that people understand this, including because so many actually disabled people fall for that crap
 
woke up with a thought, not an original one i expect, but here goes:

if you are in a minority group you are classified by the majority/other as such, and therefore your minority status becomes a class.
is the relationship between work classes and ethinic classes and sexuality classes that different?

if a member of the professional managerial class has a structural position of dominance over a member of the working class, then that is acknowledged and understood. sometimes a work position can be a subtle as having been a working class person who becomes a teacher and this class relationship is now painted as not one of helping children grow and develop and understand the world, as the teacher themselves might understand it, but of indoctrinating them into the world of capitalism!

if the above is true how can the relationships between, say, the class of first generation afghani migrants and the class of white british people with several generations of ancestry not be a class relationship. likewise the class of gay men within the wider much more dominant class of heterosexual men and women. all sociological meaningful ways of classifying people.

would it help break the identity politics impasse if people reframed these conversations as a different form of class struggle? relationships of work within the economic system are just one way of classifying people, after all, however important.
I suppose the boring answer here is "depends how you define class and what you want to do with it", I suppose. I mean, one starting point is that, however you define working class, we are the majority, and so sharpening class antagonisms should, hopefully, fingers crossed, work out well for us in the long term. I don't think that's true of the other "classes" you suggest here, which complicates things a bit - we don't want to see, say, gay men or first-generation migrants entering into conflict with straight people or British-born citizens as a class and defeating them (I don't think, anyway), we want to see members of those latter groups coming around to see the liberation of the former groups as being inextricably intertwined with their own, with the conflict, if there has to be conflict, being between the minority groups plus a supportive majority-of-the-majority vs the minority-of-the-majority who refuse to accept them.
I think that makes those two projects different enough that using the same language to describe both confuses more than it clarifies.
Although, if you did want to go down that route, I know some Marxist feminists have tried theorising women as a sex-class - I think Firestone did that, for instance - and there's that Stuart Hall line about how "race is the modality in which class is lived", which sounds quite clever but I don't really know enough about either Firestone or Hall to have a nuanced informed opinion on their theories.
 
woke up with a thought, not an original one i expect, but here goes:

if you are in a minority group you are classified by the majority/other as such, and therefore your minority status becomes a class.
is the relationship between work classes and ethinic classes and sexuality classes that different?

if a member of the professional managerial class has a structural position of dominance over a member of the working class, then that is acknowledged and understood. sometimes a work position can be a subtle as having been a working class person who becomes a teacher and this class relationship is now painted as not one of helping children grow and develop and understand the world, as the teacher themselves might understand it, but of indoctrinating them into the world of capitalism!

if the above is true how can the relationships between, say, the class of first generation afghani migrants and the class of white british people with several generations of ancestry not be a class relationship. likewise the class of gay men within the wider much more dominant class of heterosexual men and women. all sociological meaningful ways of classifying people.

would it help break the identity politics impasse if people reframed these conversations as a different form of class struggle? relationships of work within the economic system are just one way of classifying people, after all, however important.
This sort of ignores that first generation migrants and/or homosexuals can fall into the camps of worker or boss themselves, which, coincidentally, is one of the criticisms of identity politics when it seeks to make them a class outside of that.
 
I suppose the boring answer here is "depends how you define class and what you want to do with it", I suppose. I mean, one starting point is that, however you define working class, we are the majority, and so sharpening class antagonisms should, hopefully, fingers crossed, work out well for us in the long term. I don't think that's true of the other "classes" you suggest here, which complicates things a bit - we don't want to see, say, gay men or first-generation migrants entering into conflict with straight people or British-born citizens as a class and defeating them (I don't think, anyway), we want to see members of those latter groups coming around to see the liberation of the former groups as being inextricably intertwined with their own, with the conflict, if there has to be conflict, being between the minority groups plus a supportive majority-of-the-majority vs the minority-of-the-majority who refuse to accept them.
I think that makes those two projects different enough that using the same language to describe both confuses more than it clarifies.
Although, if you did want to go down that route, I know some Marxist feminists have tried theorising women as a sex-class - I think Firestone did that, for instance - and there's that Stuart Hall line about how "race is the modality in which class is lived", which sounds quite clever but I don't really know enough about either Firestone or Hall to have a nuanced informed opinion on their theories.

I think there's also the point that often what you're talking about are much more varied and changeable relationships than the traditional economic classes. Whatever the complexities there's a certain degree of commonality in every employer/employee relationship which is maybe not the case when you're looking at other types of relationship - what can you usefully say about Rishi Sunak's class relationship to white people seeing as he's the PM and all?
 
I recalled how much this politics has come over from the US the other day when I saw the announcement from gal-dem that they are shutting down. Which is sad btw and I wish small media outfits could survive. But they rather strangely pointed out that 87% of people who work in media are white. I looked it up and, as I suspected, 87% of the population of the UK are white. Which suggests the media industry is doing okay (I don't know if it actually is, I expect the raw numbers hide power differentials). But they clearly expected people to be shocked that 87% of people who work in media are white, and I think that's because it would be a shocking statistic in the US, which is far more diverse than the UK. But it's such a basic error to make that it does make question how hard people think about their politics and how it translates between countries.
 
I recalled how much this politics has come over from the US the other day when I saw the announcement from gal-dem that they are shutting down. Which is sad btw and I wish small media outfits could survive. But they rather strangely pointed out that 87% of people who work in media are white. I looked it up and, as I suspected, 87% of the population of the UK are white. Which suggests the media industry is doing okay (I don't know if it actually is, I expect the raw numbers hide power differentials). But they clearly expected people to be shocked that 87% of people who work in media are white, and I think that's because it would be a shocking statistic in the US, which is far more diverse than the UK. But it's such a basic error to make that it does make question how hard people think about their politics and how it translates between countries.

I think you could also see that as being about the London-centric nature of the media though. Would you expect the media to reflect the national population or the much lower % in London (and arguably Manchester etc)? It would take some unpicking anyway.
 
I think you could also see that as being about the London-centric nature of the media though. Would you expect the media to reflect the national population or the much lower % in London (and arguably Manchester etc)? It would take some unpicking anyway.
Maybe, but it would be difficult to explicitly make the claim that national media should reflect the population of London - pretty obnoxious to non-Londoners.
 
Maybe, but it would be difficult to explicitly make the claim that national media should reflect the population of London - pretty obnoxious to non-Londoners.

Sure, but my point was only that there's a context to this aside from US political theory. Everyone involved in Gal-Dem has probably grown up in a very diverse environment - 87% white probably instinctively seems very high. Now you can unpick the stat of course but I don't think it's as simple as it coming direct from America necessarily.
 
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