Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Diamond]

This is all fascinating stuff but maybe we are losing sight of the events in themselves here.

I was thinking about this cycling back from work today and one of the key questions that occurred to me is - would you have seen this kind of stuff, or events with a similar sort of profile, in Western countries in recent times?

Now, I don't know the precise answer to that - I would speculate that in terms of scale and enterprise, probably not, and I think a lot of that "inflation" or "escalation", if you like, is down to the various effects of modern media, as noted by many above.

However, while I was cycling through Spitalfields this evening, the idea occurred to me that - how safe did 19th century women feel in London in Victorian society when it was still legal for a man to rape his wife?

What I'm driving at is that if we are talking about the specific mechanics of NYE alone, is it not more likely than not that this is a clash of cultures on a feminist level rather than on a religious one?

Now, that's not to rule out the religious element whatsoever because how can a feminist movement effectively make progress within an Islamic culture? I would suggest with almost zero effect at all... But what it does open the door to is the idea that there was not anything intrinsically Islamist about what happened on NYE.

That doesn't make it any less worrying but I think that these are fine distinctions that are worth making.

 

[seventh bullet]

You are right but I think his point here is sound if you replace Communist with Socialist/Left Nationalist in a lot of the Arab world, and the process of encouraging Islamists as a counterweight to those sorts of movements was encouraged by the West and Israel throughout the 20th Century. It doesn't really go on now because the process has been more or less completed, which I suppose is why the YPG seem so non-threatening to NATO.

I thought he mentioned Afghanistan specifically (not the 'Arab world'), with its majority rural society and tiny urban elites forcing their politics on a resentful peasantry.

 

[Pickman's model]

This is all fascinating stuff but maybe we are losing sight of the events in themselves here.

I was thinking about this cycling back from work today and one of the key questions that occurred to me is - would you have seen this kind of stuff, or events with a similar sort of profile, in Western countries in recent times?

Now, I don't know the precise answer to that - I would speculate that in terms of scale and enterprise, probably not, and I think a lot of that "inflation" or "escalation", if you like, is down to the various effects of modern media, as noted by many above.

However, while I was cycling through Spitalfields this evening, the idea occurred to me that - how safe did 19th century women feel in London in Victorian society when it was still legal for a man to rape his wife?

What I'm driving at is that if we are talking about the specific mechanics of NYE alone, is it not more likely than not that this is a clash of cultures on a feminist level rather than on a religious one?

Now, that's not to rule out the religious element whatsoever because how can a feminist movement effectively make progress within an Islamic culture? I would suggest with almost zero effect at all... But what it does open the door to is the idea that there was not anything intrinsically Islamist about what happened on NYE.

That doesn't make it any less worrying but I think that these are fine distinctions that are worth making.

why not try "city of dreadful delight: narratives of sexual danger in late victorian london" by judith walkowitz?

 

[frogwoman]

I think 'apostates' are a problem in ANY religion because they challenge the whole idea that this is true and that nobody who knows the truth would want to leave. In Myanmar they've just passed a law forbidding Buddhist women (but not men iirc) from marrying a Muslim.why would they do that?

 

[Diamond]

why not try "city of dreadful delight: narratives of sexual danger in late victorian london" by judith walkowitz?

Looks interesting - will take a look.

 

[Humberto]

Re Coolfonz's enquiry above.

In Egypt:

* If you leave / convert from Islam, the police will arrest and incarcerate and abuse you indefinitely until you recant. If your apostasy becomes public knowledge before you are arrested, you will almost certainly be murdered. NO ONE in Egypt converts from Islam.

* Atheism is illegal. You cannot put it on your ID card. For a Muslim or any other Egyptian to announce it is to invite assassination.

* A non-Muslim man cannot legally marry a Muslim woman. It is illegal. It would therefore be adultery. Are you really so ignorant that you do not know what would happen?

*Relations between Muslim women and non-Muslim men are forbidden. Even dating. Or close friendship. If a Coptic Christian tried, he would not only endanger himself. He would likely provoke a sectarian pogrom in his locality.

Egypt is fairly typical.

Western supposedly secular governments have played a large part in this in quite a number of places. Too simple to blame Islam.

 

[Anudder Oik]

It also doesn't explain why many Muslim countries and states only started becoming rabidly fundamentalist a few years ago rather than always being like that.

With the beginning of the fall of the dictators perhaps?

 

[Casually Red]

I'm trying to explain this to myself (not just cologne but the other related stories too, paris, sweden,) in terms of a massive 'misunderstanding' about Western women, about sexually liberated societies etc, because only then can you hope that education could make a real difference:
Imagine compulsory classes for both men and women (and secondary school children) where you talk about the difference between porn / Hollywood and real life, as well as getting to learn a brief history of feminism from the suffragettes up to now and having the law around issues of consent spelled out for you. If ignorance is a big part of the problem then those sorts of things might help.

Yeah but these guys are clearly assaulting en masse, using sheer weight of numbers . Thisis a rape tactic. They're doing it forcibly and the women are screaming. How they can be under the illusion that western women are uniformly " easy " , when they have to mob up to attack them doesn't make any sense either .
These guys know full well there's no consent issue involved . This is all out attack . And they don't give them their phone numbers afterwards either . They know it's wrong but they dont give a fuck . They're criminals is why .

 

[Coolfonz]

[

I answered your question. You have no reply.

Do you think of your wit as a compensation for your ignorance?

I didn't put a question to you. Anyway, you're a bit weird with all the faux-intellect stuff. Ciao.

 

[Coolfonz]

This is all fascinating stuff but maybe we are losing sight of the events in themselves here.

I was thinking about this cycling back from work today and one of the key questions that occurred to me is - would you have seen this kind of stuff, or events with a similar sort of profile, in Western countries in recent times?

Now, I don't know the precise answer to that - I would speculate that in terms of scale and enterprise, probably not, and I think a lot of that "inflation" or "escalation", if you like, is down to the various effects of modern media, as noted by many above.

However, while I was cycling through Spitalfields this evening, the idea occurred to me that - how safe did 19th century women feel in London in Victorian society when it was still legal for a man to rape his wife?

What I'm driving at is that if we are talking about the specific mechanics of NYE alone, is it not more likely than not that this is a clash of cultures on a feminist level rather than on a religious one?

Now, that's not to rule out the religious element whatsoever because how can a feminist movement effectively make progress within an Islamic culture? I would suggest with almost zero effect at all... But what it does open the door to is the idea that there was not anything intrinsically Islamist about what happened on NYE.

That doesn't make it any less worrying but I think that these are fine distinctions that are worth making.

It was still legal for a man to rape his wife in the UK in the 1980s.

 

[Casually Red]

With the beginning of the fall of the dictators perhaps?

I'd disagree . I'd say it's got pretty much everything to do with the influence of Saudi Arabia right across the Muslim world . The Saudi mainstream is extremist . And they spend billions every year distributing their bigoted poison to the 4 corners of the earth . With the spread of satellite tv stations and the Internet it's a lot more readily accessible . The stuff they pump out is pure poison . And to make matters worse Al jazeera Arabic at times have tried to ape them...the AJ programme calling for genocide in Syria for example . Keeping up with the competition .

 

[LiamO]

This is all fascinating stuff but maybe we are losing sight of the events in themselves here.

I was thinking about this cycling back from work today and one of the key questions that occurred to me is - would you have seen this kind of stuff, or events with a similar sort of profile, in Western countries in recent times?

Now, I don't know the precise answer to that - I would speculate that in terms of scale and enterprise, probably not, and I think a lot of that "inflation" or "escalation", if you like, is down to the various effects of modern media, as noted by many above.

However, while I was cycling through Spitalfields this evening, the idea occurred to me that - how safe did 19th century women feel in London in Victorian society when it was still legal for a man to rape his wife?

What I'm driving at is that if we are talking about the specific mechanics of NYE alone, is it not more likely than not that this is a clash of cultures on a feminist level rather than on a religious one?

Now, that's not to rule out the religious element whatsoever because how can a feminist movement effectively make progress within an Islamic culture? I would suggest with almost zero effect at all... But what it does open the door to is the idea that there was not anything intrinsically Islamist about what happened on NYE.

That doesn't make it any less worrying but I think that these are fine distinctions that are worth making.

It's like a Rugby club outing in the 70's

 

[coley]

as opposed to sharp. while i am aware of those aspects of the koran he mentions, it is a surprise that a) he has been unable to give any actual instances of events similar to nye before c.2010, & b) despite explicitly referring to plunder and booty is unable to cope with the notion that on any normal understanding of the term the only plunder or booty carried off were the women's possessions.

I am going to have a stab at this,(and I'll probably cock it up) but when he mentions "plunder and booty" I don't think for a minute he was referring to material possessions, rather they took away/undermined our assumptions of safety on our own streets, our belief that we are protected by our laws and the police,and in particular this applies esp to women.
A feeling of safety when out in public has got to be one of the greatest possessions anyone can embrace and treasure, to lose it through terrorism, or plain hooligan/ criminal activity is ultimately much more damaging than losing your wallet or mobile.

 

[Anudder Oik]

In regards to mysoginy being stronger in countries dominated by religion. In Franco's Spanish regime right up to the 60's, women's groups such as catholic action, who abided to and tried to impose strict dress codes (ie, dresses down to the ankles), would organize outings to the coast, not to enjoy the waters but to heckle and throw stones at women who dared to wear the latest swimming costume fashions.

I know of a story of a british woman being escorted off the beach by armed Civil guard in San sebastian in 1963. Her crime was wearing a bikini.

This week an old spanish lady told me a story about a friend of hers who was dragged into a park and raped, again in the 60's. When it happened a gardener who had been alerted by the screams came running up, only to begin to cheer on the assailant. Spain was an extremely religious country with the church intervening in public and political life. Nowadays things are bumpy but not like it used to be.

 

[coley]

Yep, if what happened in Cologne was all about people following the teachings of Islam then I'd have to declare myself 'islamophobic' and that would never do. Because Trumpophobic isn't a word yet, and because I really don't think that's the key to the problem.

It would cover the evil emissions coming from both 'The Donald' and me lurchers arse!

 

[Humberto]

I'd disagree . I'd say it's got pretty much everything to do with the influence of Saudi Arabia right across the Muslim world . The Saudi mainstream is extremist . And they spend billions every year distributing their bigoted poison to the 4 corners of the earth . With the spread of satellite tv stations and the Internet it's a lot more readily accessible . The stuff they pump out is pure poison . And to make matters worse Al jazeera Arabic at times have tried to ape them...the AJ programme calling for genocide in Syria for example . Keeping up with the competition .

Yep and not to belabour a point but they are a creation largely of western capitalist interests.

 

[Duncan2]

Thomsy will be safely in the air by now.Not very many pages ago I thought he looked as though he might be staging the first Urban coup.Somewhat reassured now.I was halfway through E. Said's book which several posters on here recommended and unprepared to wonder if Occidentalism was a thing.

 

[Vivity Report]

There are five schools. Only.

Here are the 73 recognised sects of Islam
1. Jarudiah:
2. Sulamania:
3. Butriyah:
4. Yaqubiyya:
5. Hanafiyah:
6. Karibiyah:
7. Kamiliyah:
8. Muhammadiyyah:
9. Baqiriyah:
10. Nadisiyah:
11. Sha'iyah:
12. Ammaliyah:
13. Ismailiyah:
14. Musawiyah:
15. Mubarakiyah:
16. Kathiyah:
17. Hashamiya:
18. Zarariyah:
19. Younasiyah:
20. Shaitaniyah/Shireekiyah:
21. Azraqaih:
22. Najadat:
23. Sufriyah:
24. Ajaridah:
25. Khazimiyah:
26. Shuaibiyah/Hujjatiyah:
27. Khalafiyah:
28. Ma'lumiyah/Majhuliah:
29. Saltiyah:
30. Hamziyah:
31. Tha'libiyah:
32. Ma'badiyah:
33. Akhnasiyah:
34. Shaibaniyah/Mashbiyah:
35. Rashidiyah:
36. Mukarramiyah/tehmiyah:
37. Abadiyah/Afáliyah:
38. Hafsiyah:
39. Harithiya:
40. Ashab Ta'áh:
41. Shabibiyah/Salihiyah:
42. Wasiliyah:
43. Ámriyah:
44. Hudhailiyah/Faniya:
45. Nazzamiyah:
46. Mu'ammariyah:
47. Bashriyah:
48. Hishamiyah:
49. Murdariyah:
50. Ja'friyah:
51. Iskafiyah:
52. Thamamiyah:
53. Jahiziayh:
54. Shahhamiyah/Sifatiyah:
55. Khaiyatiyah/Makhluqiyah:
56. Ka'biyah:
57. Jubbaiyah:
58. Bahshamiyah:
59. Ibriyah:
60. Zanadiqiyah:
61. Qabariyya:
62. Hujjatiya:
63. Fikriyya:
64. 'Aliviyah/Ajariyah:
65. Tanasikhiya:
66. Rajiýah:
67. Ahadiyah:
68. Radeediyah:
69. Satbiriyah:
70. Lafziyah:
71. Ashariyah:
72. Bada'iyah:
73. Ahmadiyya:

 

[Vivity Report]

* The “outside” of “older tradition” or of those things “imported from cultural contact” is utterly and unequivocally denounced by the Quran, the Prophet, and the Islamist radicals. Such things are termed “Jahiliyya” – things from the age or place “Of Ignorance”. Modern radical Islam denounces such accretions and tries to enforce the ban with violence.

Ijmaa or scholarly consensus can alter rulings and change set interpretations of scripture.

Ijmaa‘ (scholarly consensus): definition, types and conditions - islamqa.info

 

[Vivity Report]

I have no desire to defend religion as it is largely a tool used to manipulate people in to acting against their own personal interests but as far as I see it you don't have to invent things about it.

 

[Casually Red]

Taharrush is a massive gift to the far right. It needs addressing very straight forwardly IMO from a legal point of view. After all, the state can always clamp down very readily on people organising simple and often mild protests against the excesses of capitalism, so doing so to protect women from racist mysoginists shouldn't be too much of an issue. Although the state probably isn't the best vehicle for sending messages, it can send a strong enough message with vigouress prosecutions and sentences where possible, and deportations if the law allows and is appropriate.

There needs to be swift engagement with any incomming communities. The vast majority must not be allowed to be punished for the behaviour of a scum minority. Ideally, ethnicity, nationality and possibly faith shouldn't come into this, it's sexual assault and that's that.

Trying to make more of those factors is either work of far right types or weak and misguided liberal apologism of a type I hope we don't see.

I hope these cases, hugely serious and worrying as they are, turn out to be small in number and short-lived. This needs very careful handling by all those of good will.

Dude I generally agree with the gist and spirit of what you're saying but not all of the practicalities . For example , unlike people who organise protests, which generally isn't a form of clandestine activity , people intent on mass rape and sexual assault aren't going to stick up posters and the like in advance . They aren't going to co ordinate their activities with police . And they will be totally opportunist in nature , they'll only move whenever they judge they can get away with it . And without a massively increased surveillance and security state and the flooding of town centres with that rotten cctv they will in the main get clean away with it . And they know it. So basically there's no deterrent and no disincentive at present . So they'll continue to do it .

I'm quite sure yourself and many others on the left will be resolutely opposed to police surrounding and acting aggressively towards any group of middle eastern males who turn up in a town centre on a Saturday night or to a festival . But how do you expect them to prevent these rapes occurring unless they actually pre empt them ? Is there to be a mass police presence everywhere ? With water cannon on standby ? Just so people can go out for a drink and party ? Are police to ignore the presence of groups of men of this ethnicity ? Do you realise even their very presence is now going to cause real fear and anxiety, and maybe worse, among people who are just out for the night ?

And again, I'll emphasise this, I think your falling into the trap of fixating on the far right . Right now they aren't the threat. Rapists and a new phenomenon of mass rape culture are the current threat . The people who need to be urgently engaged with are those who feel they are under threat . Because they are under very real threat and this is a major problem . The purpose of the left isn't to focus on the far right, although confronting them is certainly a duty . But not a raison d'être . the purpose of the left, as I've I've always understood it, is to stand 4 square behind the common man and woman in their struggle for a dignified and safe existence. That's simply not happening . The left are failing and will continue to fail until thevpointvof irrelevance . Having increasingly abandoned their core constituency . Irrelevance beckons .

Not having a personal go but I detect in your posts the 3 major mistakes the left are making in their position. Concentration on the far right . Concentration on migrants. And a glib assurance that the state will somehow protect and provide reassurance for women by diligent police work . Which has already proven to be a pipe dream , and is likely to continue as such .
Completely forgotten are the people, the masses , the people . Theyre barely a factor . And I'm absolutely convinced this approach will be the lefts final Waterloo as regards the working class in Europe . the final disconnect .

 

[Casually Red]

Yep.

One key difference in the present being the extensive far-right social media campaign pushing the 'liberal cover up of refugee rape gangs' meme that preceded the NYE events by roughly four months. If you use Google's custom date range to exclude the NYE events from your search, you can pretty clearly see the point in early September when that campaign kicks off.

Until NYE witness reports started circulating the day after, it was pretty much confined to a list of sites that look like Anders Breivik's bookmarks folder, but when it did go mainstream, the far right echo-chamber was already at full blast and they'd been practicing their talking points on each other for months.

So we are back to your and the lefts theme of this thing being a far right conspiracy .

If I were a fascist I'd actually be actively encouraging people on the left to continue to spout this bullshit . It's manna from heaven for them .Maybe that woman targeted on the Internet by open borders loons was a " nazi whore " after all and making the whole thing up. Along with hundreds of others .

 

[Casually Red]

Also regarding honour killings, Sikhs and Hindus also carry them out (and occasionally Christians in the Middle East) but yet in theory the texts of Sikhism and Hinduism ascribe a far more equal role to women?

They've been known in southern European Christian culture too . Sicily and the like. And Latin America . It's a patriarchal thing , a family thing . Misogyny .

 

[Casually Red]

Yep and not to belabour a point but they are a creation largely of western capitalist interests.

I'd say less of a creation and more of a client . Their coddling and sustenance by western political and financial elites has been a major part of the problem . As has been the wests readiness to use the sectarianism and backwardness they espouse in their own geopolitical interests .

 

[Bernie Gunther]

So we are back to your and the lefts theme of this thing being a far right conspiracy .

If I were a fascist I'd actually be actively encouraging people on the left to continue to spout this bullshit . It's manna from heaven for them .Maybe that woman targeted on the Internet by open borders loons was a " nazi whore " after all and making the whole thing up. Along with hundreds of others .

Are you claiming that there is no evidence that the sites from Anders Brievik's bookmarks were screaming about refugee rape gangs and liberal cover ups for months before NYE?

'Cos Google says different.

... Or are you just saying that people should keep quiet about it?

 

[bimble]

Are you claiming that there is no evidence that the sites from Anders Brievik's bookmarks were screaming about refugee rape gangs and liberal cover ups for months before NYE?

'Cos Google says different.

To me it looks like you're confusing thing a bit.
Yes, of course this stuff is mana from heaven for the far right.
People like these blokes LOVE stories about 'rapefugees'. Fears grow over Finland's far-right vigilante group 'Soldiers of Odin'

I'm sure it's true what you say about right wing sites going on about this for ages before NYE made the news.

But your response to the events every time you post here seems to be exactly this:

people should keep quiet about it

Your 'solution' is to accuse anyone who wants to talk about these attacks of being a right wing Breivik- type loon. Which is crazy.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Did I actually say any of that though?

You're putting a lot on 'seem' there, and it won't take the weight.

 

[bimble]

Did I actually say any of that?

Not in so many words no, but maybe you can clarify if I misunderstood. I'm saying you're totally correct about this being a gift to the far right but I'm confused what about what your point is other than that.

 

[bluescreen]

So Breivik-type loons were talking about this long before Cologne, and have been raving about police cover-ups. Does this tell us that the Breivik-type loons were inventing it, or perhaps that they were the first to have the very bad manners to point it out? Because, yes, it is a gift to them, and even more so is the silence of the left. ISTR that for years Anne Cryer was denounced as pandering to the right.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Not in so many words no, but maybe you can clarify if I misunderstood. I'm saying you're totally correct about this being a gift to the far right but I'm confused what about what your point is other than that.

The short answer (I have a longer one, but not enough time right now) is that the far right social media campaign pre-dating NYE is just as much a part of the context of this as the victim/eyewitness statements about what happened.

In particular, it has explanatory force in connection with pertinent questions like:

'Why did the corporate political/media complex suddenly start giving a shit (on this scale) about women being sexually assaulted?'

and

'Why is X feature of what happened (e.g. capital / imperialism's role in collapsing states and hence producing an increasing number of zones basically run by militia gangsters and the impact of that on global refugee flows) being largely ignored in favour of a narrative that's primarily concerned with emoting about cultural threats posed by foreigners and yelling at people who refuse to emote along those lines?'

etc.

At no point have I said anything remotely like 'we should ignore the victim/witness accounts of what happened'