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Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

Now a city near Bonn has banned male refugees from a municipal swimming pool because of sexual harassment of female pool users.

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If I read the thing correctly, the goal seems to be send a message about acceptable behaviour, and if this is message is accepted the ban may be lifted.

Yes, that seems to be what its saying, and also that the pool managers have done this due to pressure from residents/ regular swimmers after too many complaints of harrassment. Do you also get a link just below the story with a photo of someone's tits under the heading 'this will also interest you'? :facepalm:
 
Yes, that seems to be what its saying, and also that the pool managers have done this due to pressure from residents/ regular swimmers after too many complaints of harrassment. Do you also get a link just below the story with a photo of someone's tits under the heading 'this will also interest you'? :facepalm:
Yes, I do get such a link.
 
you started pissing on about plunder. how many women were taken as booty? er 0. all the booty can therefore consist of is their clothes etc. now fuck off you dull cunt.

I don’t like to be impolite, but I hope others will forgive me if I choose not to answer this fellow in person.

What Pickman’s model wants is a uTube vid of women being gang-raped in public in the Middle Ages. What he wants is proof that events ‘exactly like’ Cologne have been recurring throughout history. That would satisfy him. That is what he is imagining. That would give him relief.

Sadly, his urgent desire is frustrated. There were no mobile phones or Facebook in the Middle Ages. There was no youth culture. There was no easy or regular mass civil mobility. (Only mass military mobility.)

Some things were different in the past.

But PM is not to be denied. He demands satisfaction. He needs it. All his questions are answered except this one – this one which makes absolutely no historical sense. He knows it makes no sense. (He surely knows? It is a ridiculous question. He must know.) So he keeps on asking it, and asking it, and asking it…
 
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I don’t like to be impolite, but I hope others will forgive me if I choose not to answer this fellow in person.

What Pickman’s model wants is a uTube vid of women being gang-raped in public in the Middle Ages. What he wants is proof that events ‘exactly like’ Cologne have been recurring throughout history. That would satisfy him. That is what he is imagining. That would give him relief.

Sadly, his urgent desire is frustrated. There were no mobile phones or Facebook in the Middle Ages. There was no youth culture. There was no easy or regular mass civil mobility. (Only mass military mobility.)

Some things were different in the past.

But PM is not to be denied. He demands satisfaction. He needs it. All his questions are answered except this one – this one which makes absolutely no historical sense. He knows it makes no sense. (He surely knows? It is a ridiculous question. He must know.) So he keeps on asking it, and asking it, and asking it… faster, and faster, and faster… and now he is shouting, shouting rude words, shouting more rude words… and then, and then…. he collapses, sweating but sated, with the satisfaction of a question well asked.

I'll tell you what mate, you may or may not be correct but this post makes you sound like a twat.
 
Why is his question ridiculous?

The centuries to which PM referred were a period during which Islam was often geographically static or actually on the retreat, notably from Western Europe. Compared to the earlier period, there were far fewer conquests. Consequently, the Muslim law ‘of conquest by force of arms’ did not often apply. What applied in the areas that Islam had already conquered, were the laws of ‘dhimmitude’ – the social, political and cultural inferiority imposed upon non-Muslims under Muslim rule. Those latter laws were (and still are) perennially enforced with various degrees of intensity.

There were exception to the above. Islam continued to expand into, for example, sub-Saharran Africa. I gave him the titles of books in which he could investigate those events. Millions of Africans were robbed, enslaved and used for sex. For the particulars of Mahdism in the Sudan there are too many sources to start listing.

But I’ll cite a tiny selection of events from the Medieval period. They are not chosen for any intrinsic merit. They were just the first ones that came into my head / appeared when I opened a few sources. It is a silly list. Almost as silly as PM’s question. But I will cite them to make a point

Conquest of Egypt, 642 – for accounts of conquest and booty (material property and women) see eg John of Nikiou’s account.
Conquest and ravaging of Cyprus and Greek islands (circa 650) – see account of Michael the Syrian.
Conquest of Armenia and resultant booty (material property and women). For raids into Spain and France, rape and pillage, see the Annales of Ibn al Athir.
Anatolia c.840 – the taking of Amorium – there were many nunneries in the city and the virgins were all led off to their fate.
Armenia again, in the mid-C11th – see Samuel of Ani: the women from his town were taken as booty from his town during the Feast of the Virgin.

These raids, conquests and pillages were conducted according to the precepts of Islamic law. But I quote them because, as anyone might rightly note, these events were no worse than those conducted by Christians and others in the period. And I agree entirely. My point has simply been that the rest of the world has tried to move on. The Islamic conquests were conducted according to Islamic law. The same law to which devout Muslims adhere today. A law imposed by God. A law that remains in force for all eternity. The law that Isis are now applying in their Caliphate. A law, the fundamentals of which, is preached and taught in every mosque and madrassa from Raqqa to Rotheram.

More modern ‘stuff’? Is it really necessary? Alphabetically?
Aleppo 1850 – pillage and rape... Armenian massacres of 1890s, the genocide of 1915(16?) …

Of course, the list would not give a remotely balanced reading of Islamic rule. What about the Abbasids. The Ottomans. The Moghuls in India. Great civilizations.

Islamic law technically required the execution of every conquered Hindu – they were not People of the Book, they were pagans and polytheists to whom no mercy should have been extended. But there were not killed: for practical reasons, they were simply subordinated. Because that is the essence of the relations between Dar el Islam and Dar el Harb: the effective subordination of non-Muslims. The law is there to serve the propagation and triumph of Islam and its adherents, not vice versa. (Had it been practicable or beneficial to destroy those populations, they might well have done so – much as Charlemagne and the Franks did during the Christianizing drive in East Germany and the Baltic.) Only historical study will explicate the precise manner by which Islamic supremacy was effectively imposed in any given case.

The sufferings of Islam’s black slaves were usually (excuse the grotesque calculus) less than those of the victims of the Anglo-American slave trade. As I said in my very first post: Islam regulates such things. Shari’a legislates the things Muslims are allowed, and the things they are not allowed, to do with and to their slaves. Christianity offered no legislation on the treatment of slaves. And thus no effective protection. Christians carried out a brutal slave commerce.

Islam has detailed rules. But I think it is legitimate to ask what essential objectives underpin them.
 
I don’t like to be impolite, but I hope others will forgive me if I choose not to answer this fellow in person.

What Pickman’s model wants is a uTube vid of women being gang-raped in public in the Middle Ages. What he wants is proof that events ‘exactly like’ Cologne have been recurring throughout history. That would satisfy him. That is what he is imagining. That would give him relief.

Sadly, his urgent desire is frustrated. There were no mobile phones or Facebook in the Middle Ages. There was no youth culture. There was no easy or regular mass civil mobility. (Only mass military mobility.)

Some things were different in the past.

But PM is not to be denied. He demands satisfaction. He needs it. All his questions are answered except this one – this one which makes absolutely no historical sense. He knows it makes no sense. (He surely knows? It is a ridiculous question. He must know.) So he keeps on asking it, and asking it, and asking it… faster, and faster, and faster… and now he is shouting, shouting rude words, shouting more rude words… and then, and then…. he collapses, sweating but sated, with the satisfaction of a question well asked.
i think what you're saying here is that you were being economical with the truth when you said there were books containing the examples i sought. but one would have thought, for your argument to have any credibility, that cologne et al were but the latest examples of an islamick law being put into effect, only now i see that there are no previous examples.
 
Why is his question ridiculous?

The centuries to which PM referred were a period during which Islam was often geographically static or actually on the retreat, notably from Western Europe. Compared to the earlier period, there were far fewer conquests. Consequently, the Muslim law ‘of conquest by force of arms’ did not often apply. What applied in the areas that Islam had already conquered, were the laws of ‘dhimmitude’ – the social, political and cultural inferiority imposed upon non-Muslims under Muslim rule. Those latter laws were (and still are) perennially enforced with various degrees of intensity.

There were exception to the above. Islam continued to expand into, for example, sub-Saharran Africa. I gave him the titles of books in which he could investigate those events. Millions of Africans were robbed, enslaved and used for sex. For the particulars of Mahdism in the Sudan there are too many sources to start listing.

But I’ll cite a tiny selection of events from the Medieval period. They are not chosen for any intrinsic merit. They were just the first ones that came into my head / appeared when I opened a few sources. It is a silly list. Almost as silly as PM’s question. But I will cite them to make a point

Conquest of Egypt, 642 – for accounts of conquest and booty (material property and women) see eg John of Nikiou’s account.
Conquest and ravaging of Cyprus and Greek islands (circa 650) – see account of Michael the Syrian.
Conquest of Armenia and resultant booty (material property and women). For raids into Spain and France, rape and pillage, see the Annales of Ibn al Athir.
Anatolia c.840 – the taking of Amorium – there were many nunneries in the city and the virgins were all led off to their fate.
Armenia again, in the mid-C11th – see Samuel of Ani: the women from his town were taken as booty from his town during the Feast of the Virgin.

These raids, conquests and pillages were conducted according to the precepts of Islamic law. But I quote them because, as anyone might rightly note, these events were no worse than those conducted by Christians and others in the period. And I agree entirely. My point has simply been that the rest of the world has tried to move on. The Islamic conquests were conducted according to Islamic law. The same law to which devout Muslims adhere today. A law imposed by God. A law that remains in force for all eternity. The law that Isis are now applying in their Caliphate. A law, the fundamentals of which, is preached and taught in every mosque and madrassa from Raqqa to Rotheram.

More modern ‘stuff’? Is it really necessary? Alphabetically?
Aleppo 1850 – pillage and rape... Armenian massacres of 1890s, the genocide of 1915(16?) …

Of course, the list would not give a remotely balanced reading of Islamic rule. What about the Abbasids. The Ottomans. The Moghuls in India. Great civilizations.

Islamic law technically required the execution of every conquered Hindu – they were not People of the Book, they were pagans and polytheists to whom no mercy should have been extended. But there were not killed: for practical reasons, they were simply subordinated. Because that is the essence of the relations between Dar el Islam and Dar el Harb: the effective subordination of non-Muslims. The law is there to serve the propagation and triumph of Islam and its adherents, not vice versa. (Had it been practicable or beneficial to destroy those populations, they might well have done so – much as Charlemagne and the Franks did during the Christianizing drive in East Germany and the Baltic.) Only historical study will explicate the precise manner by which Islamic supremacy was effectively imposed in any given case.

The sufferings of Islam’s black slaves were usually (excuse the grotesque calculus) less than those of the victims of the Anglo-American slave trade. As I said in my very first post: Islam regulates such things. Shari’a legislates the things Muslims are allowed, and the things they are not allowed, to do with and to their slaves. Christianity offered no legislation on the treatment of slaves. And thus no effective protection. Christians carried out a brutal slave commerce.

Islam has detailed rules. But I think it is legitimate to ask what essential objectives underpin them.
ok. but this rather undermines your claims. you whine on about 'plunder' and 'booty' in cologne. but there was no plunder or booty (barring the unfortunate women's clothes, phones, wallets, etc). were any women abducted? your examples here make great play of this:
Anatolia c.840 – the taking of Amorium – there were many nunneries in the city and the virgins were all led off to their fate.
have any women been 'led away' from cologne? was the hauptbahnhof forecourt 'conquered' as you'd have it above? i think not.

you're saying the nye events all the result of islamick law being put into practice. but in your own terms and by contrast with your own examples it clearly isn't.
 
oh: and Thomsy according to the fount of all knowledge, wikipedia, amorium was sacked not by a ragtag rabble of refugees or migrants but by one of the abbasid caliphs in response for an unprovoked byzantine raid. which gives a rather different complexion to the events.
 
The Islamic conquests were conducted according to Islamic law. The same law to which devout Muslims adhere today. A law imposed by God. A law that remains in force for all eternity. The law that Isis are now applying in their Caliphate.
Yes, ok. And a brave post I think but not really for this particular thread - because surely you don't think that the men in Cologne getting drunk on NYE were devout Muslims with the law of God uppermost in their minds?
 
I don’t like to be impolite, but I hope others will forgive me if I choose not to answer this fellow in person.

What Pickman’s model wants is a uTube vid of women being gang-raped in public in the Middle Ages. What he wants is proof that events ‘exactly like’ Cologne have been recurring throughout history. That would satisfy him. That is what he is imagining. That would give him relief.

Sadly, his urgent desire is frustrated. There were no mobile phones or Facebook in the Middle Ages. There was no youth culture. There was no easy or regular mass civil mobility. (Only mass military mobility.)</snip>
Perhaps it's because you sometimes sound like someone from Foggy Bottom who reckons that Islam is teh evil. Perhaps it's because you're focusing on religion as a cause of the behaviour, rather than on other cultural issues. Perhaps it's reductio ad absurdam. I can't be alone in knowing devout Muslims who would never dream of behaving like this: it would be against their religion. Rather than ramp up the rhetoric of the clash of civilisations, perhaps we should be looking elsewhere for the causes of this behaviour and its solutions.
 
You're probably right. I just got sick of his vulgarity.

I don't have the knowledge to be able to agree/disagree with you on lots of what you say Thomsy, but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right...

Where do we go from here in dealing with this situation now?
 
I don't have the knowledge to be able to agree/disagree with you on lots of what you say Thomsy, but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right...

Where do we go from here in dealing with this situation now?
tbh you don't need a detailed familiarity with the intricacies of the history of islam to see he's talking bollocks.
 
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Yes, ok. And a brave post I think but not really for this particular thread - because surely you don't think that the men in Cologne getting drunk on NYE were devout Muslims with the law of God uppermost in their minds?

Hi Bimble, I’m not saying the men in Cologne were religious in the way we think of the term. I’m saying that they have a corporate identity that includes a supremacist aspiration. I’m saying that we face the prospect of our societies being torn by sectarian division. I’m saying it will change our societies.

I have read a few of the pieces written by English women journos who have gone over to see how Cologne feels in the wake of the NYE events. The one thing they all seem to repeat is that women in the street now keep their eyes down and don’t look any men in the eye. The Mayor advised German women to dress more modestly so as not to give offence or the wrong impression.

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze… and not to show off their ornaments…” (Q 24:31)

“Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close around them… so that they may… not be molested.’ (Q 33:5)

There are all sorts of ways by which a culture can change.
 
Hi Bimble, I’m not saying the men in Cologne were religious in the way we think of the term. I’m saying that they have a corporate identity that includes a supremacist aspiration. I’m saying that we face the prospect of our societies being torn by sectarian division. I’m saying it will change our societies.

I have read a few of the pieces written by English women journos who have gone over to see how Cologne feels in the wake of the NYE events. The one thing they all seem to repeat is that women in the street now keep their eyes down and don’t look any men in the eye. The Mayor advised German women to dress more modestly so as not to give offence or the wrong impression.

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze… and not to show off their ornaments…” (Q 24:31)

“Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close around them… so that they may… not be molested.’ (Q 33:5)

There are all sorts of ways by which a culture can change.

Yes. But that scares me too much. Especially as I've just read 'Submission' by Houellebecq (I think you'd really like it if you haven't already - set in Paris in the 2020s, women all veiled etc). If you're right then what's happening is a war, and a concerted effort at education / getting to know each other is a useless tambourine.
 
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Taharrush is a massive gift to the far right. It needs addressing very straight forwardly IMO from a legal point of view. After all, the state can always clamp down very readily on people organising simple and often mild protests against the excesses of capitalism, so doing so to protect women from racist mysoginists shouldn't be too much of an issue. Although the state probably isn't the best vehicle for sending messages, it can send a strong enough message with vigouress prosecutions and sentences where possible, and deportations if the law allows and is appropriate.

There needs to be swift engagement with any incomming communities. The vast majority must not be allowed to be punished for the behaviour of a scum minority. Ideally, ethnicity, nationality and possibly faith shouldn't come into this, it's sexual assault and that's that.

Trying to make more of those factors is either work of far right types or weak and misguided liberal apologism of a type I hope we don't see.

I hope these cases, hugely serious and worrying as they are, turn out to be small in number and short-lived. This needs very careful handling by all those of good will.
 
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Taharrush is a massive gift to the far right. It needs addressing very straight forwardly IMO from a legal point of view. After all, the state can always clamp down very readily on people organising simple and often mild protests against the excesses of capitalism, so doing so to protect women from racist mysoginists shouldn't be too much of an issue. Although the state probably isn't the best vehicle for sending messages, it can send a strong enough message with vigouress prosecutions and sentences where possible, and deportations if the law allows and is appropriate.

There needs to be swift engagement with any incomming communities. The vast majority must not be allowed to be punished for the behaviour of a scum minority. Ideally, ethnicity, nationality and possibly faith shouldn't come into this, it's sexual assault and that's that.


Taffboy, I would agree with you entirely… if the events in Cologne were the heart of the problem.

But the problem isn’t there.

As noted earlier in the thread, Erdogan is urging Muslims in Europe NOT to integrate.

Last week the organization of British mosques rejected the governments incredibly weak proposal for the oversight of UK madrassas.

A parallel network of state institutions – schools, mosques community councils, an alternative system of personal law and lawcourts, etc. – is being erected. Institutions of cultural reproduction – for the reproduction of a culture which aspires to independence and even supremacy, and which is uniquely equipped for the struggle to obtain those things.

We’ve used the term “multiculturalism” for thirty years. I think we will shortly discover that it was always just a synonym for “sectarianism”.

But I think you are certainly right about one thing: the state will assume more powers to police the cultural boundaries, and most people will support them as they do so.
 
I don't have the knowledge to be able to agree/disagree with you on lots of what you say Thomsy, but let's say for the sake of argument that you're right...

Where do we go from here in dealing with this situation now?



Hi LynnDoyleCooper,

I wish you had an answer for me.

Of course, it would have helped if we hadn’t bombed so many of their countries to rubble. But that’s pretty worthless wisdom now.

I wish we had never confused “multi-culturalism” and “racial pluralism”. But that’s pretty worthless wisdom now.

You got any ideas?
 
I've never before hoped so much that someone on the internet was wrong. :(

One of the things that strikes me about the people saying we should admit an arbitrarily large number of immigrants is that they seem to have no concept of risk management. There are two elements to risk - the probability of an event and the cost if it happens. How sure are you that these immigrants, who have a completely different world view from you, won't cause problems? How bad could those problems be? Are you willing to bet your life or your freedom on your analysis of the situation being right? Either these questions are never asked or the people making the decisions think that, even if the problems occur, they personally will be able to evade the consequences. Or maybe they just close their eyes and leap into the abyss ...
 
I've just read 'Submission' by Houellebecq (I think you'd really like it if you haven't already - set in Paris in the 2020s, women all veiled etc).


Was it good?

I mean to read it when I can, but I’m on sectarianism-overload at present. I’m off to the delightfully named Dervock this p.m. (little place in Country Antrim in the heart of Ulster Scots). When I go there I’m the only “Catholic” for about 50 miles. But, God forgive me, even I love the flute and Lambeg and the rat-tat-tat of the drummer boys on the 12th! Its addictive. Pity it’s also so pointless and clausterophobic.

Sectarianism is such a zero-sum game.

Mind you, used to report a bit in Jerusalem. So I’m not going to complain about Dervock!
 
Was it good?

I mean to read it when I can, but I’m on sectarianism-overload at present. I’m off to the delightfully named Dervock this p.m. (little place in Country Antrim in the heart of Ulster Scots). When I go there I’m the only “Catholic” for about 50 miles. But, God forgive me, even I love the flute and Lambeg and the rat-tat-tat of the drummer boys on the 12th! Its addictive. Pity it’s also so pointless and clausterophobic.

Sectarianism is such a zero-sum game.

Mind you, used to report a bit in Jerusalem. So I’m not going to complain about Dervock!

It's a very good book yes. It's a novel, very readable, not long. You'll love it I am sure. Terrifying, believable. Some would call it 'islamophobic' in the extreme.
Submission: Amazon.co.uk: Michel Houellebecq: 9781785150241: Books
 
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There are many Islams and many schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Rooting around in the texts to say that this stuff is inherent, always present in Islamic Societies is a blind alley. If so, why don't most or even many Muslims behave in this way? And there is always the 'outside' of older tradition or of those imported from cultural contact. A picture of Islam as static, monolithic and bound in time has been building over these last few pages and it aint necessarily so...
 
There are many Islams and many schools of Islamic jurisprudence. Rooting around in the texts to say that this stuff is inherent, always present in Islamic Societies is a blind alley. If so, why don't most or even many Muslims behave in this way? And there is always the 'outside' of older tradition or of those imported from cultural contact. A picture of Islam as static, monolithic and bound in time has been building over these last few pages and it aint necessarily so...
yeh, i know.
 
I thought Submission was not a novel about Islam - that stuff was pretty tangential to the story. It was a novel about faith - its loss, whether it can be regained, and under what sort of conditions (both internal and external). What I love about Houellebecq is that he's one of the funniest writers around - those deadpan sentences are always poised on the edge of hilarity. 'Submission' is well worth a read, but not to in order to learn anything about Islam.
 
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