Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[Pickman's model]

From my understanding of modern Islam, I don't find anything that Thomsy has put forward on this thread remotely surprising. In fact, I think it's pretty much on the money. Although I would not pretend to be an expert, it is entirely in line with stuff that I have studied at university and subsequently and friends who know much more than me who I have spoken to about things like this.

However, that does not necessarily mean that the NYE attacks were a reflection of a religious sensibility alone or even principally. That may have been, indirectly, part of the multifarious influences that came into play but my impression is that there were many other, perhaps more concerning, aspects at play - fundamental respect for women's rights, attitudes to the sexualisation of western women in particular, the rapid development of a rape culture amongst young men, and all within a fairly specific group of immigrants from a small range of related ethnicities and backgrounds; perhaps more than anything else reflecting the cultures that they have grown up in, and here is where you can loop in Islamic essentialism if you like and you probably would not be 100% wrong, but it is only part of a much bigger picture from my point of view.

Nonetheless, leaving the details of causality and motivation aside, it's pretty clear that this is a real issue that must be addressed and the apologists who point to Western foreign policy or who attempt to explain that integration on Western cultural terms either (i) will happen because these are fundamentally good blokes who have merely had a rough time of things recently or (ii) that integration is not really necessary at all and everything will quieten down in a stable multicultural peace are deluded.

if you reread your post you'll see you're all over the place, initially agreeing with thomsy (he's on the money). then in para 2 you move away from this. then you say stuff about wfp: but it's clear, no cackhanded invasion of iraq, no isis. no get rid of ghaddafi, no migrants drowning in the med off libya.

 

[Pickman's model]

Pickmans got rekt by Thomsy but it was consensual.

not the image i'd have used on a thread like this, but there you go. nice to see your typically incisive analysis. pity you avoided any actual argument.

 

[Pickman's model]

Totally agree with Diamond's post, apart from the bit about 'the rapid development of a rape culture amongst young men', don't know how new that is.
I'd suggest that porn, and music videos even, being available on mobile phones around the world, beamed into the lives of people living in societies where women's sexuality and the whole idea of sex outside of marriage is a complete taboo etc, is a more relevant factor here than anything to do with religious texts.

interesting how you manage to agree with diamond when his post agrees with thomsy then disagrees with him. how elastic is your reasoning?

 

[Pickman's model]

Interesting, informative, possibly controversial, even reasoned, but certainly not a " dull cunt"

as opposed to sharp. while i am aware of those aspects of the koran he mentions, it is a surprise that a) he has been unable to give any actual instances of events similar to nye before c.2010, & b) despite explicitly referring to plunder and booty is unable to cope with the notion that on any normal understanding of the term the only plunder or booty carried off were the women's possessions.

 

[bimble]

interesting how you manage to agree with diamond when his post agrees with thomsy then disagrees with him. how elastic is your reasoning?

Diamond's post acknowledged what Thomsy has been saying but attempts to put that stuff (re Islamic texts and teachings about the role of women) in context and perspective, saying that yes it may be relevant but only in a limited way, that "there were many other, perhaps more concerning, aspects at play - fundamental respect for women's rights, attitudes to the sexualisation of western women in particular" etc. I agree with him, on this and on the final paragraph as well, that's all.

 

[Casually Red]

I see you've come around to pretty much the same interpretation as I was proposing earlier. 'Hooliganism' by 'a networked shower of criminal bastards' is a pretty fair description IMO for what the available evidence suggests.

One point of difference though, where I think you're stretching a fairly weak point. I don't think that e.g. a bunch of cops could seriously be described as having an "intense, over-riding fear of being seen as racist" by anyone familiar with cops. There may be a few people who have such a fear, but I seriously doubt that many of them are coppers.

They may *talk* that way in the same way as a kipper prefaces a racist comment with 'I know you'll call me a racist for saying this but ... <says some racist shit>'.

If you'd been keeping up with the thread you'd know I've been robustly advancing the hooliganism angle from my very first post on it , and explicitly stated from my very first post I don't believe Islam has anything to do with it. I haven't "come around " to anything. Not having a go at you but that's simply the case .

I've been in a number of situations were I've seen German plod go into action, and they generally don't fuck about . These ones didn't even use pepper spray or batons. There's no injuries among that crowd . Despite the fact one of their own was among the hundreds of women assaulted there and digitally raped .that points to a definitely softly softly approach being instigated .
The cops are a top down outfit, and it stands to reason they were following orders on the night . From their boss who hushed it up. Who was hushing it up for his political bosses . And fear of racism was definitely the concern .

And I've no doubt at all in my mind from the atrocious liberal and left reaction to these women's accounts that there'd have been screams of racism and brutality had these animals been mullered all over that square . No doubt at all . And it's likely the cops..particularly their boss...knew that too. The situation plainly was and is highly politically sensitive, there's no escaping that . And plainly the police chief opted for moral cowardice and selfvpreservation rather than a robust response to the imported rape gangs . The mayor and chancellors little rescued darlings .

 

[Pickman's model]

Diamond's post acknowledged what Thomsy has been saying but attempts to put that stuff (re Islamic texts and teachings about the role of women) in context and perspective, saying that yes it may be relevant but only in a limited way, that "there were many other, perhaps more concerning, aspects at play - fundamental respect for women's rights, attitudes to the sexualisation of western women in particular" etc. I agree with him, on this and on the final paragraph as well, that's all.

either thomsy's right: or he's not: and you can't say yer man's on the money but er he's not, not and remain consistent anyway.

 

[bimble]

either thomsy's right: or he's not: and you can't say yer man's on the money but er he's not, not and remain consistent anyway.

What if.. Thomsy is about 17% right?

 

[Pickman's model]

What if.. Thomsy is about 17% right?

if i advance five arguments and one of them is cogent you might consider me 80% wrong. if i advance one argument claiming it is THE explanation and it at best partially explains something then i would probably be 100% wrong.

 

[bimble]

if i advance five arguments and one of them is cogent you might consider me 80% wrong. if i advance one argument claiming it is THE explanation and it at best partially explains something then i would probably be 100% wrong.

Ye, that's why Diamond was spot on when he said that Thomsy's religious explanation was not good enough.

As in.. I reckon the attackers' beliefs about Western women are only very partially due to anything particular to the teachings of Islam.

Personally I suspect that the availability of pornography etc on mobile phones in places where women's sexuality & sex outside marriage is a complete taboo is far more important than anything in the Koran.
At least that's something I have a clue about, having had conversations about it with a couple of young men in India for instance, during which I learnt that they (these particular men) did not have any context within which to understand what they were watching and honestly thought that the streets of London must be full of people shagging like mad, whenever they felt like it, or whenever someone came to fix the boiler etc.

 

[Teaboy]

Personally I suspect that the availability of pornography etc on mobile phones in places where women's sexuality & sex outside marriage is a complete taboo is far more important than anything in the Koran.
At least that's something I have a clue about, having had conversations about it with a couple of young men in India for instance, during which I learnt that they (these particular men) did not have any context within which to understand what they were watching and honestly thought that the streets of London must be full of people shagging like mad, whenever they felt like it, or whenever someone came to fix the boiler etc.

I admit I have been wondering the same, how much impact has internet pornography had here. But then again an ex once told me a story of a school trip she went on to North Africa (I can't remember which country - Morocco or Algeria I think) where in large crowds there were hands grabbing at them everywhere, the school trip was for 12 & 13 year olds and as she put it "there was nothing there to grab", but groped and grabbed they were. This would have been around 1991-92.

 

[LDC]

In a similar vein to the above couple of posts didn't Baywatch used to be the most watched TV show outside North America and Europe at one point - possibly now usurped by the internet and easy access to porn?

I remember being in Africa and Asia a bit ago and seeing imagery from Baywatch everywhere. Not a new revelation (or one that excuses anything of course) but if the only images and portrayal of women 'from the West' people in other parts of the world see are highly sexualized horrendously patriarchal stereotypes it can't help matters.

 

[bimble]

Yes, having porn films on your smartphone in your village wherever is just the most recent and most extreme example of something that's been going on for a very long time (Madonna, Baywatch, Sex in the City etc). It's something I've been very aware of every time I'm alone in a place where a western woman is an oddity and something you might if you were in a good mood call a misunderstanding, things lost in translation etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

In a similar vein to the above couple of posts didn't Baywatch used to be the most watched TV show outside North America and Europe at one point - possibly now usurped by the internet and easy access to porn?

I remember being in Africa and Asia a bit ago and seeing imagery from Baywatch everywhere. Not a new revelation (or one that excuses anything of course) but if the only images and portrayal of women 'from the West' people in other parts of the world see are highly sexualized horrendously patriarchal stereotypes it can't help matters.

yes. but this doesn't answer the questions 1) why nye? and 2) why nye in germany and not somewhere else? while i accept your point and the points others are making in terms of creating a context in which this can happen, it doesn't happen why this happens in certain places on certain occasions and not in other places on that same occasion.

 

[LDC]

yes. but this doesn't answer the questions 1) why nye? and 2) why nye in germany and not somewhere else? while i accept your point and the points others are making in terms of creating a context in which this can happen, it doesn't happen why this happens in certain places on certain occasions and not in other places on that same occasion.

For sure, and it was a lazy anecdote (again ). TBH I'm really struggling to work out what I think and why about this and I know lapsing into anecdotes is an easy but ultimately unhelpful thing to do, but I'm finding it a really complex and tricky subject. Both in terms of what myriad of factors paved the way for it to happen where it did, and then even more so with what I think should be done about them - both in a liberal statist framework, but also a revolutionary anti-Statist one. All I can keep saying to myself is 'what a fucking horrible mess'.

 

[bimble]

I'm trying to explain this to myself (not just cologne but the other related stories too, paris, sweden,) in terms of a massive 'misunderstanding' about Western women, about sexually liberated societies etc, because only then can you hope that education could make a real difference:
Imagine compulsory classes for both men and women (and secondary school children) where you talk about the difference between porn / Hollywood and real life, as well as getting to learn a brief history of feminism from the suffragettes up to now and having the law around issues of consent spelled out for you. If ignorance is a big part of the problem then those sorts of things might help.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm trying to explain this to myself (not just cologne but the other related stories too, paris, sweden,) in terms of a massive 'misunderstanding' about Western women, about sexually liberated societies etc, because only then can you hope that education could make a real difference:
Imagine compulsory classes for both men and women (and secondary school children) where you talk about the difference between porn / Hollywood and real life, as well as getting to learn a brief history of feminism from the suffragettes up to now and having the law around issues of consent spelled out for you. If ignorance is a big part of the problem then those sorts of things might help.

why start at the suffragettes?

 

[bimble]

I don't think that e.g. a bunch of cops could seriously be described as having an "intense, over-riding fear of being seen as racist" by anyone familiar with cops. There may be a few people who have such a fear, but I seriously doubt that many of them are coppers.

It's this sort of thing that's been perceived to be a problem, not accusations of excessive right-on ness against individual policemen.
It’s not only Germany that covers up mass sex attacks by migrant men... Sweden’s record is shameful

 

[bimble]

why start at the suffragettes?

Where would you begin? The curriculum is still in the making.

 

[Pickman's model]

Where would you begin? The curriculum is still in the making.

vindication of the rights of women. if you start with the suffragettes you're using an anglocentric term and ignoring the campaigns for women's rights in other parts of the world, for example in new zealand (and of course conflating the uk suffragists and suffragettes). and tbh most historians of feminism use 1918 in this country as the partial awarding of the franchise: which is true in parliamentary elections but not local ones, for which the date is 1907. it makes sense to start earlier than the struggle for the right to vote because you'd have a range of other important struggles missed out, not least the campaign against the contagious diseases acts in this country and of course w.t. stead's 'maiden tribute of the modern babylon'.

 

[bimble]

w.t. stead's 'maiden tribute of the modern babylon'.

An excellent starting point. From the July 6th 1885 edition apparently:

"But," I said in amazement, "then do you mean to tell me that in very truth actual rapes, in the legal sense of the word, are constantly being perpetrated in London on unwilling virgins, purveyed and procured to rich men at so much a head by keepers of brothels?" "Certainly," said he, "there is not a doubt of it." "Why," I exclaimed, "the very thought is enough to raise hell." "It is true," he said; "and although it ought to raise hell, it does not even raise the neighbours."

 

[Pickman's model]

An excellent starting point. From the July 6th 1885 edition apparently:

of the pall mall gazette, for the unitiated

"But," I said in amazement, "then do you mean to tell me that in very truth actual rapes, in the legal sense of the word, are constantly being perpetrated in London on unwilling virgins, purveyed and procured to rich men at so much a head by keepers of brothels?" "Certainly," said he, "there is not a doubt of it." "Why," I exclaimed, "the very thought is enough to raise hell." "It is true," he said; "and although it ought to raise hell, it does not even raise the neighbours."

i think the contagious diseases act better and the vindication of the rights of woman even better.

 

[bimble]

of the pall mall gazette, for the unitiated
i think the contagious diseases act better and the vindication of the rights of woman even better.

The contagious diseases act of 1864 = The best way to solve the problem of STDs is to round up & incarcerate women.

 

[irf520]

I'm trying to explain this to myself (not just cologne but the other related stories too, paris, sweden,) in terms of a massive 'misunderstanding' about Western women, about sexually liberated societies etc, because only then can you hope that education could make a real difference:
Imagine compulsory classes for both men and women (and secondary school children) where you talk about the difference between porn / Hollywood and real life, as well as getting to learn a brief history of feminism from the suffragettes up to now and having the law around issues of consent spelled out for you. If ignorance is a big part of the problem then those sorts of things might help.

Plus if there were any element of Islam itself being responsible the consequences flowing from that could be too horrible to contemplate.

 

[bimble]

Plus if there were any element of Islam itself being responsible the consequences flowing from that could be too horrible to contemplate.

Yep, if what happened in Cologne was all about people following the teachings of Islam then I'd have to declare myself 'islamophobic' and that would never do. Because Trumpophobic isn't a word yet, and because I really don't think that's the key to the problem.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yep, if what happened in Cologne was all about people following the teachings Islam then I'd have to declare myself 'islamophobic' and that would never do. Because Trumpophobic isn't a word yet, and because I really don't think that's the key to the problem.

billionaire-o-phobick

 

[Pickman's model]

Plus if there were any element of Islam itself being responsible the consequences flowing from that could be too horrible to contemplate.

yeh cos what's happened in cologne is so much worse than what's happened in iraq, saudi arabia or syria

 

[bimble]

billionaire-o-phobick

not all billionaires...

 

[Idris2002]

Now a city near Bonn has banned male refugees from a municipal swimming pool because of sexual harassment of female pool users.

Aktuelle Nachrichten aus Sachsen

If I read the thing correctly, the goal seems to be send a message about acceptable behaviour, and if this is message is accepted the ban may be lifted.

 

[Pickman's model]

not all billionaires...

why not?