Hundreds of women assaulted in German NYE celebrations

[xenon]

Oh OK, I get you. I'm happy to cop to misunderstanding you, but you'll notice I did ask rather than assume.

As to the explanation for why a bunch of street criminals suddenly decided to go in for mass sexual assault, I'd be really interested in getting to one instead of doing all this chest-beating tarzan shit quite frankly.

Culturally nuanced misogyny, enacted opportunistically by a subset of criminal associates free of the usual moral constraints. Perhaps reinforced with an outsider Mentality born of the offenders circumstances.

 

[sihhi]

oh, I just meant that if it had turned out it was japanese tourists who dun it then your second sentence would not make sense and the likes of Pegida would have been disappointed by the news.

OK here goes in short I still don't get the relevance of this enirely counterfactual hypothetical.

More generally to summarise some ideas - note I don't think there is enough details to forward actual explanations and dynamics of why how things happened.

1 Often in gangs engaged in criminality, the worst rise to the top the rawest and vilest types of cut-throat attitudes to society and people are magnified in the pressure to stay sane with enough adrenaline to keep going. It's not unique to north Africans, but north Africans are involved here. It's not a surprise that there is some north African involvement since there has been a sizeable Moroccand and Tunisian population in Germany since the bilateral agreements of the mid 60s.

2 Sexual harassment of women who belong to a group different to yours is a common occurence throughout history dominated by male behaviour. (It can of course occur within your own group. In December the Families minister Manuela Schwesig warned of sexual exploitation and abuse of minors, especially girls, from recent waves of refugees, being targetted and victimised by large groups of men.)

Now, to take an example to show how difficult explanations are, every year at New Years in Istanbul in Taksim cases of group sexual harassment and groping of foreign-looking or western-language-speaking women have occured. Here's a story from 2008 a set of Austrian female tourists groped by a group of "over 100" "mostly young" men during the fireworks display.
Yılbaşında Taksim'de Avustralyalı Kadınlara Toplu Cinsel Taciz

In 2011 with thousands of police on the streets in Taksim and hunreds of plainclothes officers there were "a great many" cases and about 20 arrests. Yılbaşında tacizlere engel olunamadı
The same report of that New Year lists 4 women British tourists in Turkey (group of 4 women + 1 men) being sexually harassed by "tens" of men in seaside tourist Marmaris during New Years Eve celebrations.

In 2016 with freezing temperatures and even more police than ever with the terrorism precautions there was still a case of sexual harassment Taksim'de yine yeni yıl rezaleti!

There's a forum here with people updating events every new years taksim'de toplu taciz this kind of event has been happening for about 20 years and discussing and people still can't explain it properly there. There's no criminal gang component that has been discovered just groups of men targetting women - why?

 

[Casually Red]

Here are some tentative ideas about such an explanation.

First off, I don't think a bunch of guys violently sexually assault a woman because they're lonely and want a girlfriend. If you read some of the horrible shit linked on the Roosh thread or some of the Gamergate stuff, I think you can get a bit of insight into the mind of people who might want to do things like that. That stuff reads like a bunch of very fucked up people having abusive fantasies about power and acting as an echo-chamber for each others justifications of doing so. So what may be happening is a similar mechanism among the street criminal networks from which the majority of perpetrators appear to have been drawn.

Secondly, I'd suggest that there's a kind of crossover between robbing people and demonstrating power over them. Outrage at being sexually assaulted is distracting and hence facilitates robbery, so there's a potential synergy in the other direction too. There are any number of well-documented cases of violent rapists and serial killers who started out doing minor stuff like robbery, got a taste for the power rush and escalated from there. Richard Ramirez is an obvious example but there are plenty more, so what may have been happening is a sort of self-organising mass version of the same escalation.

Thirdly, there are widely circulated videos of stuff like Tahir Square and other accounts of apparently similar behaviour ("Eve teasing" etc) which may have acted as patterns. It's not entirely clear what mechanisms by which such patterning might have occurred would be however.

Now I'm not claiming that these are the only strands of an account of why a bunch of muggers / pickpockets escalated to sexual assault, but I think each is a reasonable candidate as part of an explanation.

Nothing there I could disagree with .

 

[Casually Red]

Thing is I don't even know what we disagree about, because I don't know what these people, red squirrel, or dot communist, or butchers apron, actually think about why mass sexual assault happened here, instead of just robberies.

What they disagree with you over is having your own upstart ideas and not kissing their smarmy backsides .
Therefore they try to either bully you into submission or drive you away . As they've done to others .

 

[bluescreen]

One of the things that may upset women about all this is the slide from property to body, as if sexual assault were just another thing on the continuum of criminality. Men often compare rape to car theft, an analogy that misunderstands how personal the offence is. If - speaking very generally - sex isn't a big deal for men then even the best intentioned may miss the existential offence of the attack. (It doesn't help that society fetishises this, of course.) I can understand why women in particular are more exercised about this development in street crime, while the police officers (mostly male) stand around thinking 'just more low-level criminality'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

One of the things that may upset women about all this is the slide from property to body, as if sexual assault were just another thing on the continuum of criminality. Men often compare rape to car theft, an analogy that misunderstands how personal the offence is. If - speaking very generally - sex isn't a big deal for men then even the best intentioned may miss the existential offence of the attack. (It doesn't help that society fetishises this, of course.) I can understand why women in particular are more exercised about this development in street crime, while the police officers (mostly male) stand around thinking 'just more low-level criminality'.

I get that there's an aspect of this event that's exclusively in the realm of female subjectivity. I'm certainly not going to try to tell women about their experience of sexual aggression and associated matters like cultural stigma (and was cringing when I saw other guys doing just that all over the Roosh thread)

I also think that there's a big distinction between crimes against property and what you might call 'crimes against the self' by which I mean the sort of abusive power demonstrations that I was on about in this post

I do think that there's a partial overlap of experience in terms of some types of 'crimes against the self' though, and in terms of their commission by groups of young men.

I've got a male cousin whose life was pretty much wrecked by a group of guys baiting him into a fight by being sexually aggressive to his girlfriend, then putting him into hospital for months while inflicting maximum humiliation (and no doubt having a nice little tribal bonding experience while doing so) I wouldn't for a moment want to claim that what he went through completely parallels what a sexually assaulted woman experiences, or the trauma that his girlfriend experienced in the process of it happening, but I'm pretty sure there's at least some overlap, both in terms of what he experienced and in terms of how and why the attackers acted as they did.

 

[cesare]

One of the things that may upset women about all this is the slide from property to body, as if sexual assault were just another thing on the continuum of criminality. Men often compare rape to car theft, an analogy that misunderstands how personal the offence is. If - speaking very generally - sex isn't a big deal for men then even the best intentioned may miss the existential offence of the attack. (It doesn't help that society fetishises this, of course.) I can understand why women in particular are more exercised about this development in street crime, while the police officers (mostly male) stand around thinking 'just more low-level criminality'.

There's a lot that I disagree with Greer about, but she has some interesting thoughts on rape and sexual assault. It's worth reading this article: Germaine Greer: Rape

 

[Spymaster]

Men often compare rape to car theft ....

Really?

 

[bimble]

Really?

Yep. And not just the obvious idiots who say things like 'well you shouldn't have left the keys in the ignition / worn those shoes'.


Just when you think this place is a waste of time it goes & redeems itself - loads of interesting stuff this last couple of pages.

This piece of writing here is very long and a bit flowery but there's a core idea in it that I found really insightful.

It says "there's a meme going around says ‘Rape is about violence, not sex. If someone were to hit you with a spade, you wouldn’t call it gardening.’ And this is true. But it is just the surface of the truth. The depths say something more, something about violence.."

It suggests that sexual violence takes place in the gap where healthy human interaction and intimacy and empathy should be, where that is absent, often due to the pernicious side of the myth of masculinity. If you can get past the bits about the limbic system, I think she's got a good point.
The Opposite of Rape Culture is Nurturance Culture

 

[IC3D]

One of the things that may upset women about all this is the slide from property to body, as if sexual assault were just another thing on the continuum of criminality. Men often compare rape to car theft, an analogy that misunderstands how personal the offence is. If - speaking very generally - sex isn't a big deal for men then even the best intentioned may miss the existential offence of the attack. (It doesn't help that society fetishises this, of course.) I can understand why women in particular are more exercised about this development in street crime, while the police officers (mostly male) stand around thinking 'just more low-level criminality'.

I've known women to have sympathy with date rapists and even one who even said she didn't know if rape was that bad because it never happened to her. Generalisions are pointless.

 

[bimble]

Generalisions are pointless.

What, ALL of them or just most?

 

[bluescreen]

I get that there's an aspect of this event that's exclusively in the realm of female subjectivity. I'm certainly not going to try to tell women about their experience of sexual aggression and associated matters like cultural stigma (and was cringing when I saw other guys doing just that all over the Roosh thread)

I also think that there's a big distinction between crimes against property and what you might call 'crimes against the self' by which I mean the sort of abusive power demonstrations that I was on about in this post

I do think that there's a partial overlap of experience in terms of some types of 'crimes against the self' though, and in terms of their commission by groups of young men.

I've got a male cousin whose life was pretty much wrecked by a group of guys baiting him into a fight by being sexually aggressive to his girlfriend, then putting him into hospital for months while inflicting maximum humiliation (and no doubt having a nice little tribal bonding experience while doing so) I wouldn't for a moment want to claim that what he went through completely parallels what a sexually assaulted woman experiences, or the trauma that his girlfriend experienced in the process of it happening, but I'm pretty sure there's at least some overlap, both in terms of what he experienced and in terms of how and why the attackers acted as they did.

That's awful, Bernie. Very sorry to hear that and hope he's OK now. Hope she is, too.

Thing is, there are still men in some societies who regard women as property.

 

[bluescreen]

I get that there's an aspect of this event that's exclusively in the realm of female subjectivity. I'm certainly not going to try to tell women about their experience of sexual aggression and associated matters like cultural stigma (and was cringing when I saw other guys doing just that all over the Roosh thread)

I also think that there's a big distinction between crimes against property and what you might call 'crimes against the self' by which I mean the sort of abusive power demonstrations that I was on about in this post

I do think that there's a partial overlap of experience in terms of some types of 'crimes against the self' though, and in terms of their commission by groups of young men.

I've got a male cousin whose life was pretty much wrecked by a group of guys baiting him into a fight by being sexually aggressive to his girlfriend, then putting him into hospital for months while inflicting maximum humiliation (and no doubt having a nice little tribal bonding experience while doing so) I wouldn't for a moment want to claim that what he went through completely parallels what a sexually assaulted woman experiences, or the trauma that his girlfriend experienced in the process of it happening, but I'm pretty sure there's at least some overlap, both in terms of what he experienced and in terms of how and why the attackers acted as they did.

That's awful, Bernie. Very sorry to hear that and hope he's OK now. Hope she is, too.

Thing is, there are still men in some societies who regard women as property.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

He's still pretty messed up a couple of decades later I'm afraid, or he was when I last saw him. His girlfriend coped (or maybe I want to say recovered) a bit better, tried for a couple of years to help him get himself sorted out but eventually gave up and just got on with her life.

You get what I'm saying though?

This sort of crime is about taking and abusing power over others, frequently (as in that example and Cologne) exercised by a group of young guys and is often also a demonstration of dominance over other guys in addition to that being exercised over the women who were involved.

That isn't to minimise in any way the very real trauma involved for the women in question, but rather to point out that this stuff has other dimensions.

Property may well come into it as a conceptual framework for power demonstration, but it's not property in the sense of 'they nicked my mobile' ...

 

[cesare]

He's still pretty messed up a couple of decades later I'm afraid, or he was when I last saw him. His girlfriend coped (or maybe I want to say recovered) a bit better, tried for a couple of years to help him get himself sorted out but eventually gave up and just got on with her life.

You get what I'm saying though?

This sort of crime is about taking and abusing power over others, frequently (as in that example and Cologne) exercised by a group of young guys and is often also a demonstration of dominance over other guys in addition to that being exercised over the women who were involved.

That isn't to minimise in any way the very real trauma involved for the women in question, but rather to point out that this stuff has other dimensions.

Property may well come into it as a conceptual framework for power demonstration, but it's not property in the sense of 'they nicked my mobile' ...

It's property in the sense of ownership and control.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It's property in the sense of ownership and control.

Sure, but in the case of my cousin, the attackers were your basic drunk white scouse thugs, so if we're talking about men in 'some societies' doing that stuff with the implication of women as property, we're including our own (although I guess some may wish to characterise my homeland as some sort of 'primitive culture' ... )

 

[cesare]

Sure, but in the case of my cousin, the attackers were your basic drunk white scouse thugs, so if we're talking about men in 'some societies' doing this stuff, we're including our own (although I guess some may wish to characterise my homeland as some sort of 'primitive culture' ... )

Yes, I wouldn't exclude our own society. Fathers still "give away" their daughters on marriage - there are many examples of persisting and ingrained ideas of women as chattels. The Abrahamic religions are at the root of a lot of it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bernie, there are people out there who don't give women the time of day. Seriously, think about that for a moment and how different your life might be if no one paid you the slightest regard.

Inaccurate. Those people who don't give women the time of day, usually pay a great amount of regard to the behaviour of women.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Maybe they think robberies = sexual assault? I mean, it's all a crime against property.

Do try harder not to be a twat, eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's the " people " that gets me . Like theyre important or something .

We'd stop calling you a prick and a wanker and a nasty little Internet bully if you just had a go at the people who've been engaging in actual massive misrepresentation on this thread . An example of which I've quoted.

But you're completely blind to that so plainly the issue you have isn't misrepresentation .

So on the one hand, don't speak for others.
But on the other hand, you are quite happy to speak for others.

 

[Pickman's model]

So on the one hand, don't speak for others.
But on the other hand, you are quite happy to speak for others.

do as i say not as i do

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well quite.

Thing is there are only 3 or 4 of them doing this mendacious shit. I'd put money on there being shit loads of onlookers to this thread on Bimble's side, thinking they're being wankers, but staying out of it!

Next you'll be mentioning the millions of PMs of support that bimble and CR have had.

 

[Spymaster]

Next you'll be mentioning the millions of PMs of support that bimble and CR have had.

Well Red did get a couple from me last night.

But you're a bit late to the party, Veeps.

This one's all done and dusted!

 

[ViolentPanda]

That'll be you lot explaining why you think people were sexually assaulted en masse on NYE, rather than just robbed, by the perpetrators of these attacks.

Some of us did so over a hundred pages ago.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well Red did get a couple from me last night.

But you're a bit late to the party, Veeps.

This one's all done and dusted!

I've had the great fortune ( ) to have spent the last 18 hours or so compiling an invitation list and a press release for a community event, hence the late-coming.

 

[Spymaster]

I've had the great fortune ( ) to have spent the last 18 hours or so compiling an invitation list ....

Can I come?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can I come?

Locals and dignitaries only, I'm afraid!
We've evolved an alternative to the council's plan to demolish our estate, and we're "putting it out there" in order to get maximum publicity. Any humiliation felt by the council will be a bonus.

 

[Spymaster]

Locals and dignitaries only, I'm afraid!
We've evolved an alternative to the council's plan to demolish our estate, and we're "putting it out there" in order to get maximum publicity. Any humiliation felt by the council will be a bonus.

Well good luck with that.

I just thought there might be jelly and ice cream.

 

[hot air baboon]

...you'll just get over-tired and start showing off...

 

[Pickman's model]

...you'll just get over-tired and start showing off...

in that case spymaster's always over-tired