How much do you think doctors should get paid?

[Edie]

Current IA obviously for us juniors. I’ve stepped out and am scabbing inc picking up locums. Will probably but not definitely give the locum money to the strike fund, but I may give it to the food bank instead

Do you think this IA is justified?
Would you feel obliged to support it even if you didn’t cos ‘unions’?
Do you even think doctors should be paid the same as nurses, who in turn should be paid the same as HCAs (extreme Marxist option ).

For information:
Starting Foundation doctor salary: 29,000 (£14.10/hr).
Ten years into training, Senior Reg (my level): 51,000 (£28/hr).
Note: if you work a more demanding rota, like a 1 in 2, this will be higher (I work a 1 in 4). Plus you can boost your income with locums- I do, a massive amount, but I work all the hours God sends.

Consultants start at 88,000 rising to 119,000 after 20 years service as a Consultant. It takes 10-15 years post Med school to become a Consultant.

Controversially, I sometimes think this is enough… The “militant” BMA point to the brain drain to Aus and make comparisons to other professions.

So- do you think Junior Docs are right to strike and risk patients for (what they call full pay restoration) a 33% increase?

PS am only giving you two poll options, cos that’s all the options I have about whether to walk out next week

 

[Elpenor]

Yes

Two reasons

1 - I saw a tweet a while ago that explained due to various other non-cash benefits being removed (accommodation being provided cheaply or for free?), fiscal drag, student loan thresholds being changed etc junior doctors now receive less net pay than they did did 16 years ago (approx I can’t remember the details) and have to find more expenses from their net pay costs before you even consider inflation.

2 - Solidarity with my fellow (public sector) workers.

 

[Edie]

Yes

Two reasons

1 - I saw a tweet a while ago that explained due to various other non-cash benefits being removed (accommodation being provided cheaply or for free?), fiscal drag, student loan thresholds being changed etc junior doctors now receive less net pay than they did did 16 years ago (approx I can’t remember the details) and have to find more expenses from their net pay costs before you even consider inflation.

2 - Solidarity with my fellow (public sector) workers.

That’s why it’s been called pay restoration. Junior doctor pay essentially has remained unchanged for 16 years, but juniors are coming out of Med school with 100k debt and none of the old perks like accommodation exist any more.

 

[SpookyFrank]

33% sounds like a lot but if that's what they've lost since the tories took over then fair enough. And nobody bats an eyelid when people in the private sector who contribute, at best, nothing get paid far more than junior doctors.

I do agree with David Graeber that public sector workers get treated like crap partly because a lot of other people are jealous of those who get to do something that actually has a point to it.

 

[Aladdin]

100% yes.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I also think consultants could stand to take a haircut to help uplift salaries elsewhere in the NHS. The senior ones also seem to do absolutely fuck all most of the time.

 

[Aladdin]

I also think consultants could stand to take a haircut to help uplift salaries elsewhere in the NHS. The senior ones also seem to do absolutely fuck all most of the time.

Really? Your use of the word "seem" is crucial.
You've no idea what they do ..they don't need to be sat beside a patient to be working you know.
Consultants have 100% responsibility and it takes a long time to get to that stage.

 

[Poot]

Yes. Healthcare is the most important thing. There isn't anything more important. Or difficult.

Just yes.

 

[ash]

Definitely some FE colleges pay £30-£35/hour for sessional tutors. Clearly isn’t actual pay as it includes prep and marking (if required) and holiday pay but you can’t compare the responsibility imo.

 

[Edie]

I also think consultants could stand to take a haircut to help uplift salaries elsewhere in the NHS. The senior ones also seem to do absolutely fuck all most of the time.

This is absolutely untrue. In ten years I’ve never encountered a Consultant who doesn’t work flat out.

Medical consultants round all their patients daily (taking at least until midday, usually longer)- then supervise juniors jobs, speak to families, liaise with other colleagues, teach, maybe research and have leadership roles.

Surgeons do ward rounds 8-9am then are in theatre all day following. Also do teaching, leadership etc. See their patients post-op.

Anaesthetists, radiologists, microbiologists etc have their own job roles but I absolutely assure you they are not twiddling their thumbs.

All work an on call rota.

Long hours are the norm- especially in training. And in training you add on rotations, brutal commutes, portfolio work to pass each year inc continuous assessment, exams (we pay for at a grand a pop, on top of GMC, Royal College fees, and medical indemnity- adds up to hundreds or thousands of pounds a year).

If there ever existed a Golden Age of Consultants on golf courses it disappeared decades ago.

 

[Edie]

Interesting you all feel we deserve pay restoration.

I’m ambivalent. Mainly because I feel so fucking bad at my nursing and HCA colleagues being absolutely fucking mugged off. That makes me want to cry. They work so hard.

Obviously a nurse doesn’t have the same responsibility as a doctor, hasn’t had the length of training, and doesn’t work our insane rotas.

But I still cannot in clear conscience stand on a picket line demanding my £51k salary be increased to £68k when my nursing colleagues are having to use food banks.

 

[Aladdin]

Nurses deserve more pay too. Same issies over here.
It's an absolute disgrace that they have not received a decent pay increase.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Current IA obviously for us juniors. I’ve stepped out and am scabbing inc picking up locums. Will probably but not definitely give the locum money to the strike fund, but I may give it to the food bank instead

Do you think this IA is justified?
Would you feel obliged to support it even if you didn’t cos ‘unions’?
Do you even think doctors should be paid the same as nurses, who in turn should be paid the same as HCAs (extreme Marxist option ).

For information:
Starting Foundation doctor salary: 29,000 (£14.10/hr).
Ten years into training, Senior Reg (my level): 51,000 (£28/hr).
Note: if you work a more demanding rota, like a 1 in 2, this will be higher (I work a 1 in 4). Plus you can boost your income with locums- I do, a massive amount, but I work all the hours God sends.

Consultants start at 88,000 rising to 119,000 after 20 years service as a Consultant. It takes 10-15 years post Med school to become a Consultant.

Controversially, I sometimes think this is enough… The “militant” BMA point to the brain drain to Aus and make comparisons to other professions.

So- do you think Junior Docs are right to strike and risk patients for (what they call full pay restoration) a 33% increase?

PS am only giving you two poll options, cos that’s all the options I have about whether to walk out next week

Are you a doctor?

 

[Edie]

Also for the record, it pisses me off when other juniors go on about the struggle when they earn more (with the exception of the first couple of years of training) than the majority.

At 51k a year I feel well off. I support two kids and I feel well off, I save every month (before locum money).

I get that this sucks


But you know what, everyone’s living on the edge, and junior doctors are not on the breadline, they’re just not.

The brain drain argument falls flat with me. I get it, pragmatically, that we’re losing juniors at a rate of knots. But seriously if you wanna go and practice in Australia good luck to you.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

They have to pay for their own education and are coming out of education as much as £100k in debt. Which is mental.

 

[Edie]

Are you a doctor?

Yes mate. Near on a Consultant. Why?

 

[Edie]

Are you a doctor?

Are you?

 

[bellaozzydog]

Are you?

No

 

[Edie]

No

Ah fair dos, I know you work in healthcare in some context so I wondered.

 

[bellaozzydog]

Solidarity

It's a word we often use. I usually sign off my emails with it. What does it mean to you? How you show it? Is it important to you? Have you benefitted from it? How do we establish solidarity between disparate groups and build on it?

www.urban75.net

Just sayin’

 

[Ax^]

friend of mine was a junior doctor for a bit has move on now

but at that stage he said the biggest thing was signed death cert as it was a money maker

even for Medical people with their twisted senses of humor

thats pretty damn dark and should not be something they seek out ot earn a wage

 

[Edie]

Solidarity

It's a word we often use. I usually sign off my emails with it. What does it mean to you? How you show it? Is it important to you? Have you benefitted from it? How do we establish solidarity between disparate groups and build on it?

www.urban75.net

Just sayin’

Yes. And I went out last IA (despite voting No- in the 2% No vs 98% Yes BMA vote ).

But you know what, I don’t follow ‘rules’ like this. We each must take our own decisions according to our conscience. We each must weigh up our responsibilities to the patients we care for, in the service we work for, and the risks of IA against the gains.

It isn’t a black and white decision. It’s a difficult moral decision. And simple answers like “solidarity” paper over this.

 

[baldrick]

I get what you're saying but I don't think they are expecting to get 33%. Yes I think pay restoration should be achieved but it's unlikely and I think the people striking know that

However they may get closer to what they (you) should have been earning were it not for austerity etc. Does that change your view? I don't think the question is 33% or nothing, it's probably going to be closer to 10% when negotiations are done (if they get more than that fair play)

I also think it would boost the nurses' argument for a pay increase if their colleagues pay is going up. Yes you could argue that medics have more status and are more deserving in the eyes of the govt but it would be difficult for them to justify one set of health professionals getting a rise and another not.

 

[quimcunx]

As we live under capitalism yes I want junior doctors to get a pay rise. And nurses and lab technicians and porters etc. I do hope that doctors show solidarity for their colleagues when they strike for a pay rise too.

More importantly I want them to be able to work shorter hours.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Yes. And I went out last IA (despite voting No- in the 2% No vs 98% Yes BMA vote ).

But you know what, I don’t follow ‘rules’ like this. We each must take our own decisions. We each must weigh up our responsibilities to the patients we care for, in the service we work for, and the risks of IA against the gains.

It isn’t a black and white decision. It’s a difficult moral decision. And simple answers like “solidarity” paper over this.

Oh give over. Industrial disputes like this are always about the boss class attacking the terms and conditions of those doing the work. The side you're on should be obvious.

 

[Edie]

friend of mine was a junior doctor for a bit has move on now

but at that stage he said the biggest thing was signed death cert as it was a money maker

even for Medical people with their twisted senses of humor

thats pretty damn dark and should not be something they seek out ot earn a wage

It’s called colloquially Ash Cash.

It’s considered private work, because whilst declaring death and filling out a Death Certificate is part of the responsibility of the job, examining the body (for pacemakers and other potentially explosive devices) prior to cremation is private work because you individually (not the Trust) accept legal responsibility for saying the body is safe for cremation.

It’s about 80quid a (dead) patient. The form in fairly lengthy. It’s a nice bonus, not exactly an income generating machine.

 

[Ax^]

the friend still has the leather sofa he bought with the cash is is quite happy to remark about it

 

[cupid_stunt]

This is absolutely untrue. In ten years I’ve never encountered a Consultant who doesn’t work flat out.

Medical consultants round all their patients daily (taking at least until midday, usually longer)- then supervise juniors jobs, speak to families, liaise with other colleagues, teach, maybe research and have leadership roles.

Surgeons do ward rounds 8-9am then are in theatre all day following. Also do teaching, leadership etc. See their patients post-op.

Anaesthetists, radiologists, microbiologists etc have their own job roles but I absolutely assure you they are not twiddling their thumbs.

All work an on call rota.

Long hours are the norm- especially in training. And in training you add on rotations, brutal commutes, portfolio work to pass each year inc continuous assessment, exams (we pay for at a grand a pop, on top of GMC, Royal College fees, and medical indemnity- adds up to hundreds or thousands of pounds a year).

If there ever existed a Golden Age of Consultants on golf courses it disappeared decades ago.

Of course it's untrue, it's been posted by urban's trained light aircraft [planes] pilot, who also happens to know how to fly a helicopter, and is experienced in building improvised fortifications, and over the last few days has made posts suggesting he knows more about Scottish law than the Scottish cops, and claims there's no need for accountants, because all you need to know is basic maths and have access to excel.

Spoiler: Everything he posts needs taking with a massive pinch of salt.

 

[Edie]

the friend still has the leather sofa he bought with the cash is is quite happy to remark about it

So?

 

[bellaozzydog]

Yes. And I went out last IA (despite voting No- in the 2% No vs 98% Yes BMA vote ).

But you know what, I don’t follow ‘rules’ like this. We each must take our own decisions according to our conscience. We each must weigh up our responsibilities to the patients we care for, in the service we work for, and the risks of IA against the gains.

It isn’t a black and white decision. It’s a difficult moral decision. And simple answers like “solidarity” paper over this.

Every man for themselves?