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How left wing is this forum?

SpackleFrog said:
Maybe people just don't wanna tolerate idiocy like this.
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Maybe there's too much emotion clouding judgement. Religion is a form of fascism. It can be equivocated, but what would be the point?

Obviously people who worship will disagree. People with significant others who worship, friends who worship, kids who worship. All tolerate religion for the sake of an easy life, and when someone fails to tolerate then they get called an idiot.

At least I'm not calling anyone names. Might not be much moral high ground, but I can see your house from here.
 
marty glaberman said:
It's essential to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist. I don't know what anybody thinks the Russian workers in 1917 were. They were sexist. They were nationalist. A lot of them were under the thumb of the church. But they made a goddamn revolution that began to change them. Whether there's a social explosion or not doesn't depend on any formal attitudes or supporting this particular organisation or that particular organisation.
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butchersapron said:
It's essential to reject the idea that nothing can happen until white workers are no longer racist. I don't know what anybody thinks the Russian workers in 1917 were. They were sexist. They were nationalist. A lot of them were under the thumb of the church. But they made a goddamn revolution that began to change them. Whether there's a social explosion or not doesn't depend on any formal attitudes or supporting this particular organisation or that particular organisation.
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Desperation is what makes a revolution, it's not driven by a coherent, shared set of beliefs. The post-hoc political justifications for mass outbreaks of violence are just that. Intellectuals appropriate the rage and make it work for them. It's hunger that make us kill the king, not principles. And every revolution is followed by purges of those who were more angry than priincipled. Or more principled than angry, I forget who the true counterrevolutionaries are. The thinkers, or the angry.
 
mojo pixy said:
Desperation is what makes a revolution, not a coherent, shared set of beliefs. The post-hoc political justifications for mass outbreaks of violence are just that. Intellectuals appropriate the rage and make it work for them. It's hunger that make us kill the king, not principles.
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So don't centre and front your own anti-religion principles as the dividing line between anything.

Seriously, this stuff is reading like a teenage shit-metal album/pencil case.
 
mojo pixy said:
Ffs, all Ireally said was disestablish, and now I'm Satan.

See what I mean? And this, from lefties.
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You did say a lot more than that as well didn't you though? You argued for a militant aggressive atheism (not secularism) to be be at the heart of what it means to be left wing. That's just crazy on every level - politically, tactically, strategically anything.

The holding onto and insistence on atheism as a philosophical/political position is itself a result of the sort of religious thinking that it claims to be beyond.

Religions bad and growing effect in educational segregation = bad etc (and many other examples) . That doesn't get challenged by saying that a particular god is shit/dead/ a nonce - but arguing for secular funding etc and the wider thing of why belief exists is to be challenged by challenging the material conditions that produce the beliefs. You get nowhere shouting god is a cunt except teenagers pencil cases.
 
butchersapron said:
So don't centre and front your own anti-religion principles as the dividing line between anything.

Seriously, this stuff is reading like a teenage shit-metal album/pencil case.
Click to expand...

Great digs btw, glad you're back too.

butchersapron said:
You did say a lot more than that as well didn't you though? You argued for a militant aggressive atheism (not secularism) to be be at the heart of what it means to be left wing.
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I didn't. I expressed opinions, argued for nothing in any meaningful way. No, I argued for disestablishment. I will always. The rest is opinion, if that wasn't clear before then let it be clear now.

And my actual point was, based on a number of interactions with a number of posters in a number of threads over a number if years, I'm surprised at the way religion is argued about here. I would expect more miltancy, especially in these days of IS, The Zionist Entity, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the US of goddamn A and so many other entities using (their) religion as a pretext for so much horror. Not to mention this is hardly new. Yes, I think I probably would expect more militancy, and recognition that religion has it's place in our violent, capitalist, poisoned world and that place is at he very heart of it all. That this thing not only justifies it all but teaches to accept it because after you die you'll be fine.

I'm surprised, that's all. It doesn't matter, it's not a fucking wedge issue. It's how things are.

And fuck religion :thumbs:

(Yeah fuck me but I'm just sentient bacteria anyway, there's no insult for that)
 
mojo pixy said:
Great digs btw, glad you're back too.



I didn't. I expressed opinions, argued for nothing in any meaningful way. No, I argued for disestablishment. I will always. The rest is opinion, if that wasn't clear before then let it be clear now.

And my actual point was, based on a number of interactions with a number of posters in a number of threads over a number if years, I'm surprised at the way religion is argued about here. I would expect more miltancy, especially in these days of IS, The Zionist Entity, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the US of goddamn A and so many other entities using (their) religion as a pretext for so much horror. Not to mention this is hardly new. Yes, I think I probably would expect more militancy, and recognition that religion has it's place in our violent, capitalist, poisoned world and that place is at he very heart of it all. That this thing not only justifies it all but teaches to accept it because after you die you'll be fine.

I'm surprised, that's all. It doesn't matter, it's not a fucking wedge issue. It's how things are.

And fuck religion :thumbs:

(Yeah fuck me but I'm just sentient bacteria anyway, there's no insult for that)
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Nah, you ended up at disestablishment - never saw you argue for it at all. In fact, it was offered you as a sort of get out.

That's because people don't think these things that you list are results of religious conflict.
 
butchersapron said:
The holding onto and insistence on atheism as a philosophical/political position is itself a result of the sort of religious thinking that it claims to be beyond.

Religions bad and growing effect in educational segregation = bad etc (and many other examples) . That doesn't get challenged by saying that a particular god is shit/dead/ a nonce - but arguing for secular funding etc and the wider thing of why belief exists is to be challenged by challenging the material conditions that produce the beliefs. You get nowhere shouting god is a cunt except teenagers pencil cases.
Click to expand...

This is some poor straw man stuff, especially for you. Not just if my posts but this whole part of the tread. Nobody's said those things.

I think you're awesome wells today :hmm:
 
butchersapron said:
Nah, you ended up at disestablishment - never saw you argue for it at all. In fact, it was offered you as a sort of get out.

That's because people don't think these things that you list are results of religious conflict.
Click to expand...

I mentioned it at the end, once I was being challenged I went from chucking opinions about to taking an actual position (one I hold and have for a long time). It's how I play.
 
After all my posts on here you think i'd do revolutionary defeatism plus anti-imperialism like some ghastly trot.

I either haven't been quite clear enough in my rejection of this nonsense or...
 
butchersapron said:
After all my posts on here you think i'd do revolutionary defeatism plus anti-imperialism like some ghastly trot.

I either haven't been quite clear enough in my rejection of this nonsense or...
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Rejection is fine. Nonsense is your opinion. One more can't hurt, after all.
 
OK fair enough, no. England is just my birthplace, I had no say in it. It's alright here.
Fuck spectator sports too, particularly in their current form.

Might as well go for a sheep as a lamb :thumbs:
 
mojo pixy said:
Maybe there's too much emotion clouding judgement. Religion is a form of fascism. It can be equivocated, but what would be the point?

Obviously people who worship will disagree. People with significant others who worship, friends who worship, kids who worship. All tolerate religion for the sake of an easy life, and when someone fails to tolerate then they get called an idiot.

At least I'm not calling anyone names. Might not be much moral high ground, but I can see your house from here.
Click to expand...

Religion is not a form of fascism. Just to be clear, I'm an atheist, not a worshipper, and you're a complete simpleton.
 
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