taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Sorry, I thought they had 10,000. But dynamicbaddog says it is 1,000 and he is a member. Blows that idea out of the water. I had stuck an extra "0" into my memory somehow. I could do demo estimates for the EDL.
How does the idea of 8+ more years of Conservative rule grab you? What does it mean for the left?
- Thread starter taffboy gwyrdd
- Start date
Sorry, I thought they had 10,000. But dynamicbaddog says it is 1,000 and he is a member. Blows that idea out of the water. I had stuck an extra "0" into my memory somehow. I could do demo estimates for the EDL.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bourgeois home-brewed delusion
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye, I remember the labour party of the 70s they had their share of 'articul8's they could have you glassy eyed in 5 minutes flat, usually given a pat on the head while the main business was attended to by the local NUM mafia
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
On this point that seems to be contentious on the thread: The idea that hung parliaments are more likely in future because of the rise of "others" (Often over 10% in polls though often not broken down or commented on whereas a generation ago it would be 1 or 2%)
The thing is, under FPTP that does not remotely impact on seats in a proportional way. I would be astonished if The Greens won 3 seats next time out. As a member I'd be delighted with 2. I would pretty gobsmacked if UKIP won a single westminster seat (ironically, they can only persue their prime objective through Westminster regardless of coming second in the popular vote at the Euros).
Yes, Plaid and SNP could have 8/9 or even more. The NI nationalists would probably be cancelled out by unionists / loyalists. The LDs will probably lose seats.
Without being an expert or being able to read the future I can't see that hung parliaments won't remain a statistical unlikelyhood. All of which could point to a small Conservative majority.
Perhaps serious agitation on the streets would be what would make them look bad and destabalise them, though it could backfire in a creation of more sympathy for the forces of reaction.
Good discussion overall btw. Ta.
Your slagging off of working class folks grammar on the EDL thread does fit the stereotype I have of the typical middle class liberal green. Just saying.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
err - I'm saying that a communist future (were it ever to come about) would represent this. It isn't a prediction. (Home-brewed delusion it maybe but not bourgeois.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
They don't *have* influence directly - only the threat of withdrawing the funds needed by the party would give them that influence. They have *potential* influence. That potential needs to be actualised.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
an answer from Butchers came there none...
coley
Well-Known Member
the idea of working class representation would be preserved and redeemed in a transformed context
Just what is meant by that?
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye, we had that once, it was called trade unionism..............dont actually remember how uncle arthur ended up with a wage nearly equalling McGregors.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Where did I say they were working class or that their English skills would be related to their class? How do you know they were working class? Do you think being working class means having extremely poor English skills? Perhaps it is you who is the more prejudiced, but are too busy looking for specks in the eyes of others. To repeat: In my long experience of teaching and living in a wide variety of working class areas, the English skills of many an EDL frother falls far below that of the average of the working class, not just in terms of left organisation per se but in terms of any increase in support for the far right. But then I am speaking from experience of people I have met, worked with and lived amongst, not just making stuff up about people I don't know. The chief reason to deride the dire disgrace to the language that the EDL exhibit is it's stark contrast to their claim to be English "patriots". But the self appointed guardians of what they define as the working class prefer to ignore that in favour of a quick, blithe and unqualified denouncement. Perhaps if the "left" spent less time fixating on dubious class based inquisitions against natural sympathisers they would have made more traction in recent years and we wouldn't be in quite the same mess. Why are there more Green councillors in working class areas than for parties to the left of Labour? That is a shocking statement on the self imposed ghettoisation of left politics, especially if the Greens are so over run with "middle class liberals". It's also probably why so many working class leftists join the Greens in preference to the Pythonesque jargon fixated grouplets. Just saying like.
And where is your evidence that I am "middle class"? Is it something else you made up?
On a constructive thread that seeks to find positive joint interests in very challenging times you have chosen to indulge in cliched sniping. Just saying like. And anyone can do it, as I have counter demonstrated. But it is pointless and will get us nowhere, so can we leave it at that?
Green party member. Teacher. Not saying you are you just fit the stereotype thats all.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
That's right. All teachers have permanent full time jobs in teaching. Except for supply teachers who are now signing on or doing office temping and other work because of being undercut by the use of unqualified people doing the same job. They sell their Labour hand to mouth, are undercut by capitalism and don't own the means of production in any capacity. But because of some narrow minded cultural prejudice you seem to think yourself qualified to pronounce them as "middle class" despite knowing next to fuck all about them.
How many working class schools, FE colleges and Adult Ed courses have you worked in or on?
What do you know about literacy rates in practice in those areas?
Everything I said about the language skills of the EDL frothers is backed up by many years experience.
What makes you think the working class generally have such poor English skills as they do?
The most likely explanation is more myopic class prejudice and unfounded error strewn assumptions.
How many working class schools, FE colleges and Adult Ed courses have you worked in or on?
What do you know about literacy rates in practice in those areas?
Everything I said about the language skills of the EDL frothers is backed up by many years experience.
What makes you think the working class generally have such poor English skills as they do?
The most likely explanation is more myopic class prejudice and unfounded error strewn assumptions.
Did I say this?
So you are denying that teaching is dominated by the middle classes?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
You
You assumed I was middle class because I was a teacher. You were wrong. Are you going to admit it?
Are most teachers middle class? Many career teachers probably could be said to be. To the gulags with them.
Now. I have answered your question, so please tell me how much experience you have working with children, youth and adults in working class areas in relation to literacy.
What class prejudice makes you think most working class people would have as poor skills in English use as so many readily viewable EDL specimens? It certainly isn't based on anything as mundane as facts. Most working class people I have taught can use a full stop and a spell checker for starters. Perhaps you think it is their place to be sub literate or something, I don't know.
To add to that you could add what might be such a great inherent sin about being "middle class" in any case. Would Marx and Engels have passed muster if you had come across them or would you have been too busy sneering at their class? Or Doctor Che, or Prince Kropotkin?
Again, why do you think the traditional left has made such little traction during a massive recession and amidst the greatest banking rip off in history? Perhaps the answer lurks within your own exclusivist attitudes.
Alternatively, don't bother and we can get back to a constructive thread instead of dragging in badly placed assumptions from other threads just to indulge in pointless sniping that gets neither of us anywhere. I'd rather go with this last point. Again, just saying like.
You assumed I was middle class because I was a teacher. You were wrong. Are you going to admit it?
Are most teachers middle class? Many career teachers probably could be said to be. To the gulags with them.
Now. I have answered your question, so please tell me how much experience you have working with children, youth and adults in working class areas in relation to literacy.
What class prejudice makes you think most working class people would have as poor skills in English use as so many readily viewable EDL specimens? It certainly isn't based on anything as mundane as facts. Most working class people I have taught can use a full stop and a spell checker for starters. Perhaps you think it is their place to be sub literate or something, I don't know.
To add to that you could add what might be such a great inherent sin about being "middle class" in any case. Would Marx and Engels have passed muster if you had come across them or would you have been too busy sneering at their class? Or Doctor Che, or Prince Kropotkin?
Again, why do you think the traditional left has made such little traction during a massive recession and amidst the greatest banking rip off in history? Perhaps the answer lurks within your own exclusivist attitudes.
Alternatively, don't bother and we can get back to a constructive thread instead of dragging in badly placed assumptions from other threads just to indulge in pointless sniping that gets neither of us anywhere. I'd rather go with this last point. Again, just saying like.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
It probably was in the 1950s. The world has moved on.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
So Butcher's Apron waxes lyrical about how we have no hope and that we are all f**ked by a system which is tied up by vested interests which is completely impossible to change, and yet once again he does not have any kind of solution.
While Articul8 is desperately trying to find someway to discuss what to do about another 8 more years of Tory rule, and yet is being shot down at every turn by those who feel that there is no hope. Maybe there is no hope, but there is certainly no point in attacking each other - better to try and find a set of principles to unite over rather than allow the system to divide us so effectively. Living in a cage together might make the UK a more tolerant place to live, but surely by working together we can find a way out of this mess? BA evidently cannot find one, (his silence on his own solutions is telling), but hiding behind a 'nothing can be changed, and nothing ever will be' ticket is playing into the hands of the Tories.
No matter what the doomsayers describe we still have a democracy of sorts, and if we are able to put forward an alternative which is compassionate, empowering and realistic then we have a hope of change. We need to analyse the arguments and grab the rational side of the argument. If we allow our enemies to persuade us that there is no hope then we are truly doomed.
Personally I find that most people recognise that the UK needs a review of its system. Some will argue against this, but it is a starting point. Labour is the only alternative to the Tories and so we need to take the argument to them and get them to talk about what principles they stand for.
While Articul8 is desperately trying to find someway to discuss what to do about another 8 more years of Tory rule, and yet is being shot down at every turn by those who feel that there is no hope. Maybe there is no hope, but there is certainly no point in attacking each other - better to try and find a set of principles to unite over rather than allow the system to divide us so effectively. Living in a cage together might make the UK a more tolerant place to live, but surely by working together we can find a way out of this mess? BA evidently cannot find one, (his silence on his own solutions is telling), but hiding behind a 'nothing can be changed, and nothing ever will be' ticket is playing into the hands of the Tories.
No matter what the doomsayers describe we still have a democracy of sorts, and if we are able to put forward an alternative which is compassionate, empowering and realistic then we have a hope of change. We need to analyse the arguments and grab the rational side of the argument. If we allow our enemies to persuade us that there is no hope then we are truly doomed.
Personally I find that most people recognise that the UK needs a review of its system. Some will argue against this, but it is a starting point. Labour is the only alternative to the Tories and so we need to take the argument to them and get them to talk about what principles they stand for.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Gmart
Much as I would like to answer your call for positivity, I am far from convinced that petitioning Labour about their principles has much mileage to it. As evidence I would cite most of the years from '97 to '10. The modern brown nosing of the City of London actually started under Smith with the "prawn cocktail offensive". What is their motivation for listening to such petitions when they hope to more or less tread water by staying where they are or drifting more to the right, scared of their own shadows for fear of being called a bit "left wing" by the MSM and other kool aid drinkers?
It could indeed be argued that the best hope of pulling them left would be a direct threat from the left, not more attempts to persuade them them where so many previous attempts failed. Without a such a threat from the left there's no chance they will lose too many votes to the left so why bother listening to the arguments. They think they have the left over a barrel, while that is the case the left have no power in the situation. A few seats targetted by LRC types aided by non aligned or TUSC / RESPECT types could really put the shockers on them and make them think again a great deal more than more pleading. I think it really is possible.
Much as I would like to answer your call for positivity, I am far from convinced that petitioning Labour about their principles has much mileage to it. As evidence I would cite most of the years from '97 to '10. The modern brown nosing of the City of London actually started under Smith with the "prawn cocktail offensive". What is their motivation for listening to such petitions when they hope to more or less tread water by staying where they are or drifting more to the right, scared of their own shadows for fear of being called a bit "left wing" by the MSM and other kool aid drinkers?
It could indeed be argued that the best hope of pulling them left would be a direct threat from the left, not more attempts to persuade them them where so many previous attempts failed. Without a such a threat from the left there's no chance they will lose too many votes to the left so why bother listening to the arguments. They think they have the left over a barrel, while that is the case the left have no power in the situation. A few seats targetted by LRC types aided by non aligned or TUSC / RESPECT types could really put the shockers on them and make them think again a great deal more than more pleading. I think it really is possible.
Gmart
Well-Known Member
What is their motivation? The same as ever - the need to appeal to the middle ground and to try and capture the greatest number of votes. There are many who are in business for example who are sympathetic to the idea of managing the economy better than in the past and the Conservatives have such strong connections with the old ruling elites that it makes sense to try and incorporate a pro-business attitude but without such elitism. There is no point leaving the business community for the Conservatives. Owning assets is a logical way to make provision for one's old age and so for me that is fine. However it is one thing to be open to the idea of making money and being pro-business, but it is quite another to work against a meritocratic and fair society. The Conservatives seem keen to tie up the country so that they can continue in their privileged way, maintaining the status quo where they are successful because of the assets in their family rather than hard work - which is where the line must be drawn - a fair society and an inclusive society. If Labour do not find a way to draw the lines to include as many as possible they will be consistently in the wilderness. That said I argue for constitutional change as a necessary move towards a fairer society and I think Labour should try and claim this position as the party of true change rather than Tory mk 2.
UKIP may well split the Conservatives which could help, though I agree with your assessment that they will not win that many seats, the fact that many will vote purely on the EU issue will make the Cons seats that much harder to win.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Screwing the majority to keep finance capital fraud is not the "middle ground". Labour should have the balls to say so. People saving for old age are getting ripped of in all manner of ways, no matter what their assets. Why should people vote for a right wing Labour Party when there is already such a party in government. The standard rules will apply, they'll likely stick with what they have till they are sick of it, which means 2 or 3 terms generally.
Plus Labour had 13 years of power. Most "true change" things they say they would do at this point can be answered with "why didn't you then?"
"A fair society" - social division increased under labour. Social mobility decreased. "fairness" is a word so overused and bland as to have virtually no meaning. Who is going to stand on a platform of being "unfair"? From what I recall of Miliband's last conference speech, much of it was on the lines of "good things are good. We should do more of them. But there are a lot of bad things happening too. We must strive to reduce the number of bad things. Vote Labour". In terms of rhetoric they are still doling out the "too far too fast line" - not awful of itself but it is pretty insulting to treat people like they can only digest 1 soundbite every 8 months or so. They are not showing themselves to be distinct, drifting more to the right will only exacerbate that while bolstering the arguments of the right at the same time.
I don't think UKIP will split the tory vote much at generals, they are very unlikely to look like winning a seat. Plus Cameron did his posturing with the veto, seeming to stand up for Britain while he was just bending over for the city.
Plus Labour had 13 years of power. Most "true change" things they say they would do at this point can be answered with "why didn't you then?"
"A fair society" - social division increased under labour. Social mobility decreased. "fairness" is a word so overused and bland as to have virtually no meaning. Who is going to stand on a platform of being "unfair"? From what I recall of Miliband's last conference speech, much of it was on the lines of "good things are good. We should do more of them. But there are a lot of bad things happening too. We must strive to reduce the number of bad things. Vote Labour". In terms of rhetoric they are still doling out the "too far too fast line" - not awful of itself but it is pretty insulting to treat people like they can only digest 1 soundbite every 8 months or so. They are not showing themselves to be distinct, drifting more to the right will only exacerbate that while bolstering the arguments of the right at the same time.
I don't think UKIP will split the tory vote much at generals, they are very unlikely to look like winning a seat. Plus Cameron did his posturing with the veto, seeming to stand up for Britain while he was just bending over for the city.
Thanks.
Let me just say that I don't have much love for any of the parties to the left of labour. I would say that many of these groups are full of middle class folk aswell, the reason they have less councillors in working class areas is probably cos they have a smaller campaign war chest than a liberal party like the greens and people are fed up with their idea of communism(state socialist) which has shown to not work in reality (ussr,cuba,etc). It would not surprise me if many of these 'green councillors' are parachuted into the working class areas, or are middle class folk 'slumming it out' in working class areas.
I think your obsession with grammar in the EDL thread revealed your disgusting middle class culture who constantly sneer and privately are disgusted with the working classes. A culture whose people parachute into working class schools in an attempt to 'do good' and 'help' the poor helpless working class.
p.s-I don't care about literacy in schools.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
But you just said you know that you can't really change Labour - that you're only in the LP in order to be able to talk to 8m people. And then when you do talk to them you plan to lie.
Why is it ok for you to lie like this?
Ok lets vote labour in cos thats our only 'realistic' hope of getting less shafted. BA does not need to give an alternative in order to point out some obvious facts. I also think their is a point in criticising each others point of view- Its a fucking political forum ffs. I for one think the alternative is taking power from the bottom up and organising in our workplaces and communities against the cuts and against the bosses. Ok I may not have all the blueprints for an alternative but I am certainly not daft enough to believe that voting in labour will make much difference to my standard of living. It won't, I can guarantee you that I will be getting shafted come election time whether the political party is blue or red. Labour is not the only alternative you need think outside the black and white politics of parliamentarianism and political parties.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Like this you mean?:
http://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/index.cfm?request=c1256334
Well with 20 votes at least they beat the Euorpean Citizens Party. I don't take any pleasure in results like this, but it shows that Labour's grip won't be loosened by just challenging from outside.
Not much we are going into reverse. The lack of social mobility is around the same now as it was then.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
is not a failed state
Thats a matter of opinion. It is certainly not communist in my eyes.
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