Hondo's plans for a huge tower on Pope's Road, Brixton and the Brixton Project

[Gramsci]

This article is lazy "young" tory bullshit, with only a vague grasp of empirical reality. Who are, for example, "the anti-.housing brigade"? And who still talks about "yuppies"? Also, it suggests campaigners against Hondo claimed the tower would drive up rents for local businesses. Rents have already been driven up, by the same character who wanted to put up Hondo. And, finally, if you oppose gentrification, you are "resistant to prosperity"? Twat!

I see Tulster218 going to put you on ignore.

Join the club I reckon he did that with me a while back.

 

[Gramsci]

What I'd like to know from Tulster218 is whether he agrees that a planning application which is a deviation from the Local Plan should be allowed.

 

[isvicthere?]

He didn't use the word Yuppies. He did use the phrase 'upwardly mobile'. What phrase would you prefer him to use to describe someone moving to a higher social class by acquiring wealth and status. You've confused your anger for the word with your anger for the concept.

It must have been edited, because the version I read, definitely said "yuppie". You´re the only one who is confused. Thanks for putting me on ignore, which appears to be some kind of badge of honour on here, although a dubious tactic for someone who claims to "have an argument"!

Eta: Here is the line c&pasted from the Editor´s post above (italicised for effect): failing to protect the needs of the disadvantaged, multiethnic community against yuppie sprawl.

No need to apologise. Being right is its own reward.

 

[isvicthere?]

What I'd like to know from Tulster218 is whether he agrees that a planning application which is a deviation from the Local Plan should be allowed.

Well, since he claims to "have an argument" and demonstrates this elevated ability by putting those who disagree with him on ignore, I feel we (well, those of us not on ignore) should be told.

 

[editor]

He didn't use the word Yuppies. He did use the phrase 'upwardly mobile'. What phrase would you prefer him to use to describe someone moving to a higher social class by acquiring wealth and status. You've confused your anger for the word with your anger for the concept.

Yes he did. Right here:

But Nimbys can be urban creatures too, and they look a little different. Last week, the development of the Hondo Tower in Brixton was thwarted after the developer withdrew their application after campaigners argued that the tower would gentrify the area, failing to protect the needs of the disadvantaged, multiethnic community against yuppie sprawl.

 

[Tulster218]

Does he mention the fact that the development was overwhelming for office space? As in something like 90% with no affordable units? No, he lazily and ignorantly bangs on about a 'sea of Prets and All Bar Ones' as if that was the only issue, and forgets all about the well document huge decline in demand for office space.

He also omits the fact that the tower broke Lambeth's own planning regulations, would be 100m taller than is permitted and was opposed by a diverse range of local residents, the local MP, the Victorian Society, English Heritage and the Brixton Society? Or the fact that Hondo's own skewed survey found 73% of locals did not want the tower - so why are you supporting someone so opposed to local democracy? Do you think developers should just be able to get whatever they want?

And any clueless clown claiming that 'Gentrification has a bad name' clearly knows nothing about the process or the misery, division and displacement it causes communities. But then he wouldn't know anything about that kind of thing being the kind of Tory hack who appears on right wing shit like GB News and has zero connection with Brixton.

Examining the Negative Impacts of Gentrification

by Emily Chong

www.law.georgetown.edu

What we talk about when we talk about gentrification

The worst problems are in the neighborhoods that aren’t gentrifying.

www.vox.com

I'm not defending him at all. I'm trying to point out that not all issues are black and white. It's not all about good vs evil.

There is huge demand for office space in Brixton. The evidence for that is the price. Price is high because demand is high, and supply is low. More supply of office space will result in lower prices.

The way planning works is that trade-offs are allowed. We elect local councillors to make these decisions. We might not always agree with Lambeth councillors, but that's democracy. We don't delegate planning authority to amenity societies, or to our local MP actually.

The fact that most local people don't support the tower is exactly the point he's making. Local people don't support new housing near Cambridge either, nor did they support Canary Wharf. The point is we need more office space across everywhere in London and across the South East. That would make a real difference, but local people object everywhere.

I'm just saying it's not as clear-cut as you think. I know an elderly Windrush generation widow who has sold her house for close to £1m. She's not complaining one bit about gentrification. For everyone buying an expensive house there's someone else selling.

 

[editor]

I'm not defending him at all. I'm trying to point out that not all issues are black and white. It's not all about good vs evil.

Sorry, who has claimed that it's good vs evil?

The fact that most local people don't support the tower is exactly the point he's making. Local people don't support new housing near Cambridge either

For the last time: THERE WAS NO HOUSING INCLUDED IN THE HONDO TOWER. None. Nothing. Zero., Zilch.

The point is we need more office space across everywhere in London and across the South East. That would make a real difference, but local people object everywhere.

Err, no 'we' don't. Here's what our local MP said:

There was no evidence of the demand for 20 storeys of office space, particularly after the shift to remote working during the Covid-19 pandemic, and the current government’s relaxation of planning rules meant that had it been built, the tower could then have been used as a backdoor for luxury housing with no requirements for social or affordable housing.

 

[Tulster218]

Yes he did. Right here:

Okay. I see that now.

 

[isvicthere?]

Okay. I see that now.

So, who is it who is actually (your word) "confused"?

 

[Tulster218]

Sorry, who has claimed that it's good vs evil?

You by your tone. You seperate people into two groups: those who agree with you and those who don't. The truth is more nuanced.

For the last time: THERE WAS NO HOUSING INCLUDED IN THE HONDO TOWER. None. Nothing. Zero., Zilch.

I get that. He's comparing Cambridge Nimbys with Brixton Nimbys.

 

[Gramsci]

The way planning works is that trade-offs are allowed. We elect local councillors to make these decisions. We might not always agree with Lambeth councillors, but that's democracy. We don't delegate planning authority to amenity societies, or to our local MP actually.

The hole in your argument is that it was not in the end nimbies who stopped the development it was GLA planning officers recommending rejection of the application. It's a deviation from the Local Plan. They were entirely in their rights to do this Due to this Hondo withdrew application.

It isn't stopping Hondo putting in an application which is within the guidelines of the Lambeth Local Plan. They say they will do this.

Those opposing this application went through all the democratic procedures.

By the way an MP is allowed to oppose a planning application which is in her constituency. This is regarded as valid.

Like Brixton society they are on the list of those to be formally consulted. So their opinion carries some weight.

So when you talk about how how planning works I think you forget that in this case opposition was done through the planning process. That is how the kind of democracy we have works.

The end result might not be to your liking. But it was not nimbies who stopped this.

You could argue that planning guidelines should be changed. But in this case opposition was done through planning.

 

[Gramsci]

Sorry, who has claimed that it's good vs evil?


For the last time: THERE WAS NO HOUSING INCLUDED IN THE HONDO TOWER. None. Nothing. Zero., Zilch.



Err, no 'we' don't. Here's what our local MP said:

Tulstar is trolling you. He's putting anyone else who disagrees with him on ignore and concentrating on picking on you.

 

[editor]

You by your tone. You seperate people into two groups: those who agree with you and those who don't. The truth is more nuanced.


I get that. He's comparing Cambridge Nimbys with Brixton Nimbys.

You're so confused you can't tell the difference between a huge tower of unwanted office space that breaks Lambeth's own planning regulations and some random housing development taking place miles and miles away. Either you are, as Gramsci suggests, trolling or just plain stupid.

 

[editor]

The hole in your argument is that it was not in the end nimbies who stopped the development it was GLA planning officers recommending rejection of the application. It's a deviation from the Local Plan. They were entirely in their rights to do this Due to this Hondo withdrew application.

Yep. This is the bit that he's totally unable to comprehend. Mind you, earlier on he was insisting that the word 'yuppie' didn't appear anywhere in the article so perhaps reading comprehension isn't his forte?

 

[Tulster218]

You're so confused you can't tell the difference between a huge tower of unwanted office space that breaks Lambeth's own planning regulations and some random housing development taking place miles and miles away. Either you are, as Gramsci suggests, trolling or just plain stupid.

Once again you're calling people who disagree with you stupid.

The article you quoted compares Nimbyists in Cambridge with Nimbyists in Brixton.

 

[quimcunx]

The very first paragraph addresses that very question. The typical view he thinks, is that they're old, white, rural and affluent. He then explains that there are people in urban areas, such as Brixton, who are different to that. The implication is that people in Brixton might be expected to be more progressive and less conservative.



He didn't use the word Yuppies. He did use the phrase 'upwardly mobile'. What phrase would you prefer him to use to describe someone moving to a higher social class by acquiring wealth and status. You've confused your anger for the word with your anger for the concept.



He explains that "The land value in Brixton has exploded in recent years owing to its Zone 2 location and well-connected tube station." His argument is that rent rises are inevitable in this location, and have little to do with property developers in general, or this one in particular. You believe that rents have been driven up by this developer, he believes it's just about

Brixton has been in zone 2 with a well connected tube station for many decades so that's not caused the recent explosion in land value.

 

[Tulster218]

Yep. This is the bit that he's totally unable to comprehend.

You claimed I was anti-democracy and I'm explaining that I have no problem with democracy.

I explained that trade-offs are allowed in local planning. We elect local councillors to make these decisions. We might not always agree with Lambeth councillors, but that's democracy. We don't delegate planning authority to amenity societies, or to our local MP actually.

The same is true of the Mayor. He calls in some planning applications and takes decisions. It's how our democracy works.

 

[editor]

Once again you're calling people who disagree with you stupid.

The article you quoted compares Nimbyists in Cambridge with Nimbyists in Brixton.

But opposition to the tower wasn't all from these supposed NIMBYs - the tower broke local housing regulations, would dominate a conservation area in Brixton and would give far too much power to one person. You can read about that here: Feature: the Hondo Tower and why it’s a really bad idea for Brixton

And your patronising dismissal of anyone objecting to this scheme as NIMBYs really shows your ignorance of the area. Opposition to the scheme came from a broad, diverse range of locals numbered in their thousands, as well as the local MP, the Victorian Society, the Brixton Society, the Mayor of London, St Matthew’s TRA and BRUG.

The tower was also completely unsustainable:

Professor Philip Steadman, Emeritus Professor of Urban and Built Form Studies at UCL, said:

‘A recent study at the Energy Institute, University College London, has shown that office and residential buildings use more energy in operation, per square metre of floor area, the taller they are.

If office buildings on 20-storeys and above (‘high-rise’) are compared with offices on 6-storeys and below (‘low-rise’), electricity use in high-rise, per square metre of floor area, is found to be nearly two and a half times that in low-rise.

Gas use also increases with height, by around 40%, going from low-rise to high-rise. As a result, total carbon emissions from the two fuels together are twice as great in the high-rise buildings.

At 20-storeys, the Hondo tower rises well above surrounding buildings, and will be exposed to the strong winds and more sunshine that seem to cause these energy effects. It is also highly glazed, which will exacerbate the problems.’

Victorian Society urges Mayor to reject Brixton’s Hondo Tower on environmental grounds

Despite being emphatically rejected by the local community, Lambeth Council inexplicably rubber-stamped Hondo’s plans for a brutally ugly 20 storey block in the centre of Brixton in November…

www.brixtonbuzz.com

 

[editor]

You claimed I was anti-democracy and I'm explaining that I have no problem with democracy.

I explained that trade-offs are allowed in local planning. We elect local councillors to make these decisions. We might not always agree with Lambeth councillors, but that's democracy. We don't delegate planning authority to amenity societies, or to our local MP actually.

The same is true of the Mayor. He calls in some planning applications and takes decisions. It's how our democracy works.

So why are you having such trouble respecting the democratic decision that the GLA took?

 

[Tulster218]

Brixton has been in zone 2 with a well connected tube station for many decades so that's not caused the recent explosion in land value.

I could be wrong, but I think most zone 2 areas with tube stations have seen soaring property prices in the last few decades. I'd guess it's due to rising immigration, low interest rates and a shortage of new development.

editor Do you see how quimcunx expresses a view without insulting people?

 

[Tulster218]

So why are you having such trouble respecting the democratic decision that the GLA took?

I'm not.

 

[Gramsci]

Wez

I'm not.

You've just spent past series of posts defending an article in City AM that's it's nimbys who hold up planning applications that would in your view and writers view would mean addition of much needed office space and housing.

 

[Gramsci]

On office space. I go around city and west end. Most offices now have rows of empty desks. People are working from home. And coming into office few days a week.

This FT article says that companies are downsizing once lease comes to end. Hybrid work means less space needed. This will take time to effect rental income from office space. As companies have to wait for leases to end before moving.Investors in office space are concerned that rental values may go down next year

Subscribe to read

www.ft.com

It doesn't seem to me that there is extra demand for office space

Article also says that companies are looking for premises which are "green"/ have things like roof terraces etc to attract people to come into office. So are getting picky about what space they will rent.

Does not seem to me that extra office space is a good investment.

 

[nagapie]

I could be wrong, but I think most zone 2 areas with tube stations have seen soaring property prices in the last few decades. I'd guess it's due to rising immigration, low interest rates and a shortage of new development.

editor Do you see how quimcunx expresses a view without insulting people?

I don't think anyone should have to be polite about your conservative viewpoints that support practices that destroy communities and increase the poverty divide.

 

[Gramsci]

The way planning works is that trade-offs are allowed. We elect local councillors to make these decisions. We might not always agree with Lambeth councillors, but that's democracy. We don't delegate planning authority to amenity societies, or to our local MP actually.

The fact that most local people don't support the tower is exactly the point he's making. Local people don't support new housing near Cambridge either, nor did they support Canary Wharf. The point is we need more office space across everywhere in London and across the South East. That would make a real difference, but local people object everywhere.

Im a bit confused about how you see local democracy here.

You say "We" elect Cllrs to make decisions. Then you say "most people don't support tower".

Which bit of democracy are you supporting?

My view is that Cllrs are elected to represent the people. If "most people" oppose this application then logically so should Cllrs.

After all property developers like Hondo do not elect Cllrs.

Are you saying, in effect, that "we" elect Cllrs but then they have free hand in what is best for community?

Quite a narrow definition of democracy. One that some support on other issues as well.

Its attitudes like this, which aren't uncommon even among those who like to think themselves progressive, that piss Joe Public off.

 

[Tulster218]

I don't think anyone should have to be polite about your conservative viewpoints that support practices that destroy communities and increase the poverty divide.

Conservative with a capital C is someone who is a member of the Conservative party.
conservative with a lower case c is someone who is averse to change and holds traditional values.
Progressives, like me, want to see more development. We want things to change.

If it weren't for the NIMBYists everyone could have afordable housing and affordable office space. It's the NIMBYists who are destroying communities and increasing the poverty divide, not people like me.

I think Brixton should be for everyone, not just the people who got here first.

 

[editor]

Conservative with a capital C is someone who is a member of the Conservative party.
conservative with a lower case c is someone who is averse to change and holds traditional values.
Progressives, like me, want to see more development. We want things to change.

If it weren't for the NIMBYists everyone could have afordable housing and affordable office space. It's the NIMBYists who are destroying communities and increasing the poverty divide, not people like me.

I think Brixton should be for everyone, not just the people who got here first.

What if the new people with money are pushing out the local families, independent businesses and existing communities, ensuring that Brixton is no longer for 'everyone,' only those with enough financial clout?

Or is that just collateral damage in your capitalist free for all winner-takes-all world?

If it weren't for the NIMBYists everyone could have afordable housing and affordable office space. It's the NIMBYists who are destroying communities and increasing the poverty divide, not people like me.

This is absolutely fantasy bullshit. The Hondo tower had ZERO affordable office space and that was one of the reasons it was opposed.

Can you name one local affordable office space development that has been cancelled because of these supposed NIMBYs?

 

[editor]

Great to see that the success of the Hondo campaign is inspiring other communities to fight back

‘The Tower has fallen’ - A Win For Brixton’s Anti-Gentrification Movement - UNICORN RIOT

The proposed construction of a 20-story tower in the heart of London's Brixton district has been withdrawn, providing a win for the anti-gentrification movement.

unicornriot.ninja

 

[CH1]

Conservative with a capital C is someone who is a member of the Conservative party.
conservative with a lower case c is someone who is averse to change and holds traditional values.
Progressives, like me, want to see more development. We want things to change.

If it weren't for the NIMBYists everyone could have afordable housing and affordable office space. It's the NIMBYists who are destroying communities and increasing the poverty divide, not people like me.

I think Brixton should be for everyone, not just the people who got here first.

I guess I'm a conservative within a small c, though vote Green or Lib Dem.
I don't normally post on this thread - but I would have thought its obvious that Sports Direct is hardly a community asset worth preserving.
That said what irks me is the council and its consultants have been endlessly consulting about this site, the site that is now Pop Brixton, the Arches etc etc.
Thousands if not hundreds of thousand of pounds of consultancy have been spent and many local people have spent hours in consultation meetings being guided at "tables" to produce community aspirations for the Central Brixton area in keeping with the requirements of Lambeth's Planning Department. All this in 2014.
See this post from Gramsci in 2014. Brixton Rec/central Brixton consultation and the 'Rec Quarter' proposals

What always happens - the council planners end up doing a dodgy deal with some nouveau riche outsider who knows better than what the residents took hours to express.
It happened over Pop Brixton, it happened over the Railway Arches - and you are moaning now because it's not all plain sailing for Taylor McWilliams and his architect David Adjaye.

I see there used to be a poster on the 2014 thread called SpamMisery who pissed people off with their spurious "progressive capitalism". Are you perhaps the very same?

 

[nagapie]

Conservative with a capital C is someone who is a member of the Conservative party.
conservative with a lower case c is someone who is averse to change and holds traditional values.
Progressives, like me, want to see more development. We want things to change.

If it weren't for the NIMBYists everyone could have afordable housing and affordable office space. It's the NIMBYists who are destroying communities and increasing the poverty divide, not people like me.

I think Brixton should be for everyone, not just the people who got here first.

What a load of absolute shit. You talk absolute bollocks but the scary thing is that this bull affects people's lives. Your sort of progressive means we now, despite being one of the richest countries in the world, have a huge sector of the population living in poverty. That's right, people not being able to eat because of your progressive ideas. Get to fuck.