Helicopter crashes into glasgow pub

[bi0boy]

laptop not really the thread for humour.

It's a point worth making though. It's hard to conceive of a pilot error that causes both rotors to stop spinning.

 

[laptop]

It's a point worth making though. It's hard to conceive of a pilot error that causes both rotors to stop spinning.

Very weird shit happens. Just last month there it appears that a pilot put a plane nose-down into a runway somewhere in the ex-Soviet Union.

So I did have a serious point...

 

[Spymaster]

"What's that switch do?"

Well quite. Even if it were possible for the pilot to switch it off during flight, wouldn't it still autorotate?

 

[Quartz]

Given they've had the pilot's funeral, have they ruled out medical causes - a stroke or heart attack?

 

[weepiper]

Given they've had the pilot's funeral, have they ruled out medical causes - a stroke or heart attack?

Neither of those would stop the rotor blades rotating.

 

[StoneRoad]

AAIB have also said that there was about 15 - 20 minutes of flying time left when the fuel tanks were drained.
Perplexing................

 

[equationgirl]

Well quite. Even if it were possible for the pilot to switch it off during flight, wouldn't it still autorotate?

Autorotating only possible if there's enough altitude to start with.

 

[Spymaster]

Autorotating only possible if there's enough altitude to start with.

Yeah, but that's to achieve a successful auto-rotation landing. The blades would still be spinning.

What we're hearing here is that neither rotor was turning when the aircraft hit, which is weird given that a gear failure has been ruled out.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeah, but that's to achieve a successful auto-rotation landing. The blades would still be spinning.

What we're hearing here is that neither rotor was turning when the aircraft hit, which is weird given that a gear failure has been ruled out.

do you mean they were motionless during all or part of the descent?

 

[Spymaster]

perhaps the pilot turned the engine off.

The blades would still turn though. If the engine stops and the aircraft drops, the airflow through the rotors will spin them.

 

[Pickman's model]

The blades would still turn though. If the engine stops and the aircraft drops, the airflow through the rotors will spin them.

in the same way that air would whistle through your eyebrows as you took a tumble down beachy head - that is, without offering the air any significant resistance.

 

[equationgirl]

The blades would still turn though. If the engine stops and the aircraft drops, the airflow through the rotors will spin them.

Only if there's enough altitude. The pilot was very low by all accounts.

 

[Pickman's model]

The pilot was very low by all accounts.

d'you think he was depressed enough to do something stupid?

 

[equationgirl]

d'you think he was depressed enough to do something stupid?

That's not funny. Please don't make tasteless jokes about this.

 

[Pickman's model]

That's not funny. Please don't make tasteless jokes about this.

why not? we've made tasteless jokes here about all manner of unamusing situations, for example the jimmy savile thread's full of them.

 

[equationgirl]

Two more funerals were held today, for PC Collins (Isle of Arran) and John McGarrigle (Glasgow).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25311486

 

[equationgirl]

why not? we've made tasteless jokes here about all manner of unamusing situations, for example the jimmy savile thread's full of them.

Because this has hit many of us here in Glasgow very hard. To you it might be something that's happened to other people in a town hundreds of miles away, but some people on this thread knew the place very well and knew some of the people who were killed. It's hit the city very hard.

Have some compassion for once in your life.

 

[Spymaster]

Only if there's enough altitude.

No. The aircraft can be too low to achieve the necessary airflow through the blades to successfully flair the helicopter and land "safely". The blades wouldn't just stop turning unless something made them stop turning (like a gear failure).

These are just my observations as a layman with a (slightly) better than average understanding of how helicopters work. ViolentPanda or one of the other military types might have a more informed opinion, but it seems to me that "rotors not turning" suggests mechanical failure.

 

[Citizen66]

Tasteless or not, it remains a possibility.

 

[Pickman's model]

Because this has hit many of us here in Glasgow very hard. To you it might be something that's happened to other people in a town hundreds of miles away, but some people on this thread knew the place very well and knew some of the people who were killed. It's hit the city very hard.

Have some compassion for once in your life.

you've missed the numerous times i have shown compassion here. but it's a rather peculiar position to take, imvho. as you will, tho. i suppose you have some theory of your own which explains away the singular features of this case and explains why an apparently viable flying machine smacked into a building without warning removing any suspicion of the pilot having crashed it deliberately.

 

[Spymaster]

why not? we've made tasteless jokes here about all manner of unamusing situations, for example the jimmy savile thread's full of them.

Too soon, Pickers.

It's too close to some fellow Urbs to make light at the moment.

 

[equationgirl]

Tasteless or not, it remains a possibility.

What, that he deliberately crashed the helicopter?

Are you for real? If there was the slightest chance this was likely it would have been reported by now.

 

[Pickman's model]

What, that he deliberately crashed the helicopter?

Are you for real? If there was the slightest chance this was likely it would have been reported by now.

is it? are you sure? you don't think that there's ever been a helicopter crash where the official version's been a load of auld shit?

let me remind you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ll-of-Kintyre-RAF-Chinook-crash-timeline.html

 

[equationgirl]

you've missed the numerous times i have shown compassion here. but it's a rather peculiar position to take, imvho. as you will, tho. i suppose you have some theory of your own which explains away the singular features of this case and explains why an apparently viable flying machine smacked into a building without warning removing any suspicion of the pilot having crashed it deliberately.

At the moment I don't have a theory because I'm waiting for more information to be reported. The AAIB investgation has barely started and so far all they have said is the there are apparently no obvious mechanical faults with the engines and gearbox. There's a whole host of other potential causes that have not yet been ruled out,

 

[Pickman's model]

At the moment I don't have a theory because I'm waiting for more information to be reported. The AAIB investgation has barely started and so far all they have said is the there are apparently no obvious mechanical faults with the engines and gearbox. There's a whole host of other potential causes that have not yet been ruled out,

right. but you are already prepared to rule things out on the basis they haven't appeared in newspapers.

 

[Quartz]

Neither of those would stop the rotor blades rotating.

How reliable is the statement that they weren't rotating? AFAIAA only one person has said that they weren't.

Anyway, we just need to be patient and wait for the CAA and AAIB.

 

[weepiper]

How reliable is the statement that they weren't rotating? AFAIAA only one person has said that they weren't.

Anyway, we just need to be patient and wait for the CAA and AAIB.

The preliminary report from the investigation said they weren't.

 

[equationgirl]

is it? are you sure? you don't think that there's ever been a helicopter crash where the official version's been a load of auld shit?

I know there's been at least one helicopter crash where the official version was contested pretty much immediately.

I also know that Glasgow city does not have a good track record of managing police helicopters in cold weather.

I'm prepared to exclude pilot error at this point because there are a lot of other factors to look at first, for example and in no particular order:

• flying procedures and techniques;
• human factors;
• aircraft performance;
• survivability;
• weather;
• airfields;
• air traffic control and witness information etc.
• aircraft airworthiness;
• systems;
• engines;
• structure;
• failure and fault analysis;
• maintenance procedures, records and documentation etc.

Human factors - the pilot deliberately causing the accident - is one of so many that at this stage they have to be investigated and eliminated systematically. Leaping to that conclusion is frankly a bit offensive.

 

[equationgirl]

How reliable is the statement that they weren't rotating? AFAIAA only one person has said that they weren't.

Anyway, we just need to be patient and wait for the CAA and AAIB.

AAIB initial report p3:

Preliminary examination showed that all main rotor blades were attached at the time of the impact but that neither the main rotor nor the fenestron tail rotor were rotating.

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/S9-2013 G-SPAO v2.pdf

 

[Pickman's model]

I know there's been at least one helicopter crash where the official version was contested pretty much immediately.

I also know that Glasgow city does not have a good track record of managing police helicopters in cold weather.

I'm prepared to exclude pilot error at this point because there are a lot of other factors to look at first, for example and in no particular order:

• flying procedures and techniques;
• human factors;
• aircraft performance;
• survivability;
• weather;
• airfields;
• air traffic control and witness information etc.
• aircraft airworthiness;
• systems;
• engines;
• structure;
• failure and fault analysis;
• maintenance procedures, records and documentation etc.

Human factors - the pilot deliberately causing the accident - is one of so many that at this stage they have to be investigated and eliminated systematically. Leaping to that conclusion is frankly a bit offensive.

i haven't leapt to any conclusion. and i find the suggestion that i have done somewhat offensive. you do know that police scotland had only the one helicopter? the one which crashed? there were no other police helicopters in scotland, which police aviation news reported in august. (link to pdf)