Helicopter crashes into glasgow pub

[Pickman's model]

AAIB initial report p3:

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/S9-2013 G-SPAO v2.pdf

they looked at it and nothing was moving.

 

[equationgirl]

i haven't leapt to any conclusion. and i find the suggestion that i have done somewhat offensive. you do know that police scotland had only the one helicopter? the one which crashed? there were no other police helicopters in scotland, which police aviation news reported in august. (link to pdf)

If you go to post 37 you will see that I am very aware that there is only one helicopter. I do not know why you have suddenly gone off on this tangent, but the track record I am referring to has been earlier referenced in this thread (there have been 3 serious incidents in 23 years involving police helicopters).

I don't want to fight on this thread. I don't know why you do.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you go to post 37 you will see that I am very aware that there is only one helicopter. I do not know why you have suddenly gone off on this tangent, but the track record I am referring to has been earlier referenced in this thread (there have been 3 serious incidents in 23 years involving police helicopters).

I don't want to fight on this thread. I don't know why you do.

now i am aware of your knowledge. but i still don't understand why you feel it right and proper to say someone's being offensive when they're not, especially if you don't want people to react to it.

 

[equationgirl]

now i am aware of your knowledge. but i still don't understand why you feel it right and proper to say someone's being offensive when they're not, especially if you don't want people to react to it.

Because I do find it offensive, considering the pilot has barely been buried for 3 days and some of the victims for barely 24 hours, when people make tasteless jokes and statements about him deliberately crashing the helicopter into a building full of people.

This is a public site that could be read by the pilot's fiance, family and friends. There are a number of investigations already underway about 'offensive, racial or sectarian' comments around the accident. How do you think it would make any one of them feel to read comments along those lines? How would you feel if it was one of your relatives or friends that was dead and people were saying that about them?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25290793

 

[teuchter]

now i am aware of your knowledge. but i still don't understand why you feel it right and proper to say someone's being offensive when they're not, especially if you don't want people to react to it.

The pilot's funeral was just three days ago. Yesterday I spoke to someone who was at that funeral. People reading and posting on this thread know the pub, and know people who were at the pub, or could have been at the pub. What more do you need to know to understand why a joke about the pilot being depressed might not be the best idea at this point in time?

 

[Pickman's model]

Because I do find it offensive, considering the pilot has barely been buried for 24 hours, when people make tasteless jokes and statements about him deliberately crashing the helicopter into a building full of people.

but you said you found it offensive i had leapt to the conclusion that he deliberately crashed the aircraft. now you've changed your tune.

 

[Pickman's model]

The pilot's funeral was just three days ago. Yesterday I spoke to someone who was at that funeral. People reading and posting on this thread know the pub, and know people who were at the pub, or could have been at the pub. What more do you need to know to understand why a joke about the pilot being depressed might not be the best idea at this point in time?

if you want to go over ground we have already covered we can. or you can fuck off and do something else.

 

[equationgirl]

but you said you found it offensive i had leapt to the conclusion that he deliberately crashed the aircraft. now you've changed your tune.

What is the matter with you?

 

[weepiper]

if you want to go over ground we have already covered we can. or you can fuck off and do something else.

what the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Pickman's model]

Because I do find it offensive, considering the pilot has barely been buried for 24 hours, when people make tasteless jokes and statements about him deliberately crashing the helicopter into a building full of people.

This is a public site that could be read by the pilot's fiance, family and friends. There are a number of investigations already underway about 'offensive, racial or sectarian' comments around the accident. How do you think it would make any one of them feel to read comments along those lines? How would you feel if it was one of your relatives or friends that was dead and people were saying that about them?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25290793

i wouldn't want people to self-censor just because it might hurt my feelings. either we have free speech, which can of course be offensive, or we don't.

 

[Pickman's model]

what the fuck is wrong with you?

what i like about you is the way you go the extra mile to calm things down.

 

[equationgirl]

i wouldn't want people to self-censor just because it might hurt my feelings. either we have free speech, which can of course be offensive, or we don't.

It's not about censorship, it's about kindness and consideration for others feelings. People are really hurting over this incident, several on urban, and you behaving like this on THIS thread is really out of order.

 

[Spymaster]

what i like about you is the way you go the extra mile to calm things down.

I've got a few points that you'd be interested in, but PM's are better.

Let's take it off the thread, geezer.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's not about censorship, it's about kindness and consideration for others feelings. People are really hurting over this incident, several on urban, and you behaving like this on THIS thread is really out of order.

what, it's out of order voicing answering your question about how i'd feel? i think i know rather better than you how i'd feel! as for being out of order, what's out of order is throwing a strop and calling me offensive and then shifting the goalposts when it's clear i wasn't doing what you claimed: that's extremely offensive. it shows you in a poor light as i had never previously thought of you as dishonest.

e2a: unless there's any further discussion along this line i'll be on my way.

 

[equationgirl]

what, it's out of order voicing answering your question about how i'd feel? i think i know rather better than you how i'd feel! as for being out of order, what's out of order is throwing a strop and calling me offensive and then shifting the goalposts when it's clear i wasn't doing what you claimed: that's extremely offensive. it shows you in a poor light as i had never previously thought of you as dishonest.

I'm not throwing a strop as you so kindly put it. I didn't put it in so many words but seeing as you're not reading properly, here are my exact feelings.

I am offended on two counts - it is actually possible to offended about more than one thing at once. Had you actually read the thread properly you would have seen that.

I am offended that you have made tasteless jokes, despite a polite request that you not do so. You have then derided my feelings about being offended despite the reasons why being clearly articulated.

I am also offended that you jumped to the conclusion that pilot error is involved, whilst discounting pretty much every other possible factor that could have contributed to the crash. As a chartered engineer this goes against all my training and what I have learnt through experience in transport crash investigation (some time ago, but the basic principles still stand).

I have not shifted goalposts at any time. I have not 'censored' you in any way. I have, however made several requests for you to stop. Please have the courtesy to do so.

 

[Spymaster]

I have, however made several requests for you to stop. Please have the courtesy to do so.

Job done.

Let's leave this now.

 

[Citizen66]

What, that he deliberately crashed the helicopter?

Are you for real? If there was the slightest chance this was likely it would have been reported by now.

I don't think so. It was years after the moorgate tube crash that they really started entertaining the possibility.

 

[Pickman's model]

I have not shifted goalposts at any time. I have not 'censored' you in any way. I have, however made several requests for you to stop. Please have the courtesy to do so.

post 268 > post 274; i never said you'd censored me ( i don't know where you got that from); i said that unless there was more to be said i was off - i am quite happy to continue this if you wish to continue quoting me after i've made clear my intent. btw you may think i have leapt to the conclusion pilot error was involved but as i said on the previous page, you're wrong. end of? up to you.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't think so. It was years after the moorgate tube crash that they really started entertaining the possibility.

I wasn't talking about Moorgate. I was talking about the Chinook crash where relatives of the pilots were always vocal.

 

[Citizen66]

I wasn't talking about Moorgate. I was talking about the Chinook crash where relatives of the pilots were always vocal.

I didn't suggest you were. I was giving an example where a crash happened and the press didn't entertain a suicide theory until quite some time later. Anyway, I agree it's a bit off to be suggesting it at this stage. I was just saying that it is a possibility.

 

[mauvais]

Probably the majority of air accidents involve some form of pilot error, but most of those are 'there-but-for-the-grace-of-God-go-I' types that others would repeat, and very few are wilful (with the exception of 9/11, only Egypt Air springs to mind).

There are few circumstances that I can think of that would fit what we know about this bizarre scenario, and whilst many of them involve a mistake, all of them are complex.

Either way, noone in their right mind would dare call it until either some serious evidence or a concrete AAIB finding came to light.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yeah, but that's to achieve a successful auto-rotation landing. The blades would still be spinning.

What we're hearing here is that neither rotor was turning when the aircraft hit, which is weird given that a gear failure has been ruled out.

The only other thing, if not the transmission, that may have failed is the helo equivalent of the ECU, which might cause a complete shutdown, including the hydraulics.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only if there's enough altitude. The pilot was very low by all accounts.

And only if the blades were either already in the correct attitude, or were manouverable to it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No. The aircraft can be too low to achieve the necessary airflow through the blades to successfully flair the helicopter and land "safely". The blades wouldn't just stop turning unless something made them stop turning (like a gear failure).

These are just my observations as a layman with a (slightly) better than average understanding of how helicopters work. ViolentPanda or one of the other military types might have a more informed opinion, but it seems to me that "rotors not turning" suggests mechanical failure.

Even with airflow, you can't flare the chopper if you can't alter the pitch of the rotors, so if the hydraulics went while you were pitched forward, and you were only 100 or 200 feet up, you'd come down fast.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What, that he deliberately crashed the helicopter?

Are you for real? If there was the slightest chance this was likely it would have been reported by now.

TBF, it does happen occasionally, and we only tend to find out about it well after the event because the air accident investigation turns up something seemingly innocuous.

 

[ViolentPanda]

How reliable is the statement that they weren't rotating? AFAIAA only one person has said that they weren't.

Anyway, we just need to be patient and wait for the CAA and AAIB.

If the rotors had been freely rotating, it'd have been extremely unlikely that the chopper would have bellied onto the pub roof quite as hard as it purportedly did.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think so. It was years after the moorgate tube crash that they really started entertaining the possibility.

Yep.
As I said above, something seemingly innocuous leads someone to look a bit harder,
It should be said though, that of those people who attempt to take their own lives with/in a vehicle, only a statistically insignificant number of them tend to deliberately take others with them, and pilots have it inculcated into them to aim for the open ground, even when they're massively under stress.

 

[mauvais]

Even with airflow, you can't flare the chopper if you can't alter the pitch of the rotors, so if the hydraulics went while you were pitched forward, and you were only 100 or 200 feet up, you'd come down fast.

Still wouldn't result in near-zero NR.

The only things I can think of apart from serious mechanical failure (main gearbox, tentatively ruled out) that would bring the rotors to a halt, intact, would be loss of power combined with (i) no attempt to reduce the collective or (ii) application of the rotor brake.

The latter is not necessarily feasible. The former could manifest as a scenario like engine failure, shutting down the wrong engine and hoping to proceed rather than immediately autorotating. Pilot incapacitation would also explain it. Either way it's not a simple scenario.

 

[equationgirl]

Last person who died in the helicopter itself, PC Kirsty Nelis, has been laid to rest after a service at St Andrew's Cathedral in Glasgow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-25317890

For those not in Glasgow, this church is probably one of the nearest (if not the nearest) to the crash site which can be seen from the church steps.

 

[Spymaster]

Even with airflow, you can't flare the chopper if you can't alter the pitch of the rotors, so if the hydraulics went while you were pitched forward, and you were only 100 or 200 feet up, you'd come down fast.

Not with still blades though. And we're still looking at a mechanical failure.