Greek elections

[Diamond]

It's not getting technical at all. Another poster said capital strike - you insisted he meant capital controls. He didn't. And when you said capital controls, you actually meant capital flight. Simple.

No - what he said didn't make sense.

Capital controls - which is what I suggested, does.

And then you brought in capital flight to try and make some oblique point that you really don't get home on, as you typically do.

 

[butchersapron]

No - what he said didn't make sense.

Capital controls - which is what I suggested, does.

And then you brought in capital flight to try and make some oblique point that you really don't get home on, as you typically do.

So, exactly as i said. He said capital strike, you translate that as an entirely different concept for some reason - and you fuck that little bit of attempted superiority up. Then you try to run away by saying it's all rather technical.

 

[J Ed]

Wow. I pity his clients

 

[hipipol]

I apologise to the rest of the board for ever thinking this dishonest little shit could ever make, or see, sense.

(no need to put you 'on ignore,' your rambling incoherence is quite funny)

Not only do you feel the need to give some sort of bottom quartile approval rating, you now seem to think you can speak for me - well I never denigrate those in the grip of some unavoidable mania - who knows when I may be ones own turn?
In what way am I dishonest?
"Little shit" is obviously a qualitative descriptor selected from your own wide range of insults, and it is your prerogative to bestow it as you see fit
Would it be possible to explicitly state that I no qualify for your 25% approval rating? Amongst your current blizzard of postings I cannot see how it would tarnish the high reputation of your decision making skills - equally I doubt it would take you long
You keep skirting around it, while piling on the insults, from which it is possible to derive your current position, but I should appreciate the explicit statement requested some time ago

 

[hipipol]

The concept of capital controls is directly relevant because they were imposed, effectively, today to restrict capital flight.

Effectively
Only time will tell on that one
Suspect that many of the Greek Equestrian posse have many methods to circumvent such controls - its only those without power who will be crippled by it

 

[belboid]

One good result for the Greeks already - a production of Jesus Christ Superstar has been cancelled

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

No - what he said didn't make sense.

Capital controls - which is what I suggested, does.

And then you brought in capital flight to try and make some oblique point that you really don't get home on, as you typically do.

Tell us what you think a capital strike is. No Googling now.

 

[Diamond]

Effectively
Only time will tell on that one
Suspect that many of the Greek Equestrian posse have many methods to circumvent such controls - its only those without power who will be crippled by it

The controls only affect Greek accounts as far as I understand.

The wealthy will long ago have diversified their capital into other investments/accounts, such as London property.

 

[butchersapron]

One good result for the Greeks already - a production of Jesus Christ Superstar has been cancelled

However, a new metastable allotrope of carbon has arisen to the west.

 

[Diamond]

Tell us what you think a capital strike is. No Googling now.

It's not difficult to understand...

Labour strike is the withholding of labour from an economy.

Capital strike is the absence of investment in an economy.

The latter is not directly relevant to the current Greek economy, although it may be indirectly at the moment taking effect and might subsequently do so directly following a Greek default, however there are arguments to suggest that a Greek default would mitigate the risk of a general capital strike, albeit at great expense.

That lack of clarity around a "capital strike" in relation to the current situation demonstrates precisely why it is a pretty odd idea to start applying right now...

 

[not-bono-ever]

Esoteric discussion of economics is futile here and serves no purpose other than to a)show how clever you are and b) explain yo others what bandied about terms mean.

If Greece was a wonga client, it would have had it's debts written off and a formal apology issued by now, such is the depth of European complicity in this tradegy.

Innit

 

[butchersapron]

Note the shift from diamond a simple technical term to one around which there is lack of clarity.

Note also the refusal to look at actual investment or capital formation in greece.

 

[Diamond]

Note the shift from diamond a simple technical term to one around which there is lack of clarity.

Note also the refusal to look at actual investment or capital formation in greece.

Note your pompous lack of clarity.

 

[butchersapron]

Esoteric discussion of economics is futile here and serves no purpose other than to a)show how clever you are and b) explain yo others what bandied about terms mean.

If Greece was a wonga client, it would have had it's debts written off and a formal apology issued by now, such is the depth of European complicity in this tradegy.

Innit

It never even reached the level of esoteric discussion - certainly not one where diamond could show how clever he was.

 

[butchersapron]

Stuff you should know about Greece before you lose your shit

Bill Lucarelli (UWS): The Euro: A Chartalist Critique. Alberto Lanzavecchia (Padova) and Eugenio Pavarani (Parma): Democracy or Euro: Who will Surrender? Francesco Nicoli (Trento):Eurocrisis and the Myths of European Redistribution: Illegitimate, Unsustainable, Inefficient? We are told that the game was rigged from the start, that Europe was built to be ahopeless austerity machine — but was it? John Milios on how austerity isn’t irrational: In Greece and elsewhere, austerity is nothing more than capitalists imposing their class interests. Wolfgang Streeck on German hegemony: Unintended and unwanted.

I haven’t been paying attention — what’s going on in Greece? Greece is in crisis (again), and here’s what you need to know. Daniel Marans on why a bailout deal that keeps Greece in Europe may endanger Greek democracy. Who’s lying in the negotiations over Greece and the euro? Both sides claim strong opposition to the proposed deal— they may be bluffing to gain an advantage, or the deal might be near collapse. Greece gives Europe what it wants, Europe says no anyway. Europe is destroying Greece’s economy for no reason at all. Europe strikes back: It seems to be trying to push Greece out of the euro. If Grexit happens it will be because the creditors, or at least the IMF, wanted it to happen.

A finance minister fit for a Greek tragedy? The defiant stand by Yanis Varoufakis in the high-stakes economic negotiations with the E.U. threatens to tear Europe apart. Greek finance minister wrote the book on game theory, but may yet lose. Syriza needed to be made an example; you cannot survive in Europe, if you don’t embrace the Brussels-Berlin Consensus. Paul Krugman on Europe’s moment of truth. “It’s in Europe’s interest to make things as hard as possible for Greece”: Matthew Yglesias on whyGreece is doomed (and more). Jeffrey Sachs on the endgame in Greece.

Parliament approves referendum; Greece’s future in balance. What will Greeks vote on? Nikos Chrysoloras and Paul Tugwell on the referendum question. Arthur Goldhammer on how the austerity referendum solves a problem for Greece’s leaders— it may solve a problem for Europe’s leaders, too. Greece closes its banks to stem flood of withdrawals. Panic among hedge fund investors in Greece. Joshua M Brown on some stuff you should know about Greece before you lose your shit. Heidi Moore on 5 things you need to know about Greece’s financial meltdown. Kathleen McNamara on how the euro is an experiment in making a currency without a government — that’s why it’s in trouble.

 

[gosub]

Esoteric discussion of economics is futile here and serves no purpose other than to a)show how clever you are and b) explain yo others what bandied about terms mean.

If Greece was a wonga client, it would have had it's debts written off and a formal apology issued by now, such is the depth of European complicity in this tradegy.

Innit

Certainly a shitty amount of pour encourager les autres about their treatment. But Tsipras is pencils up nose and underpants on head approach to leadership.

Wibble.

 

[gosub]

Ok, I agree with you on a few of those points, specifically the need for debt relief but all this needs to be framed in the wider context of the "European Project".

If you give Greece's debt a haircut and also accede to its political demands, where do you think that leaves Ireland, Portugal, Spain or any other member of the eurozone, be they peripheral or central?

Maybe you view the eurozone as basically flawed, which you would probably be correct about although I would guess for reasons that might not be economically sound.

But then where do you go from there?

The centrifugal forces that would be unleashed would probably lead to the eventual breakdown of the EU - is that a good thing?

And, finally, though the Greeks got a bad deal, it was their electorate that voted for this government. In life you have to make choices, take responsibility and deal with the consequences. The Greeks haven't been forced to follow through on that process in a very long while and now they are getting shafted as a result but that's simply what happens when you take that route.

Much has been made of Varoufakis' understanding of game theory, though if you look at how they are playing, its clearly Calvinball. As such, ball still in play after monopoly board thrown to the ground, can only EVER be done once.

 

[Barking_Mad]

We should be clear: almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there. It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries’ banking systems. The IMF and the other “official” creditors do not need the money that is being demanded. Under a business-as-usual scenario, the money received would most likely just be lent out again to Greece.


http://www.theguardian.com/business...litz-how-i-would-vote-in-the-greek-referendum

 

[brogdale]

. Dp

 

[brogdale]

Concise

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[hipipol]

he's played a back game, with the double dice on 64, at a Euro1m a point
Risky if its yer own wedge
Mad with a whole country danglin
bizarre
hes a better gamer than that
this is a long play - he wants out, could never admit same...
perfect pitch for the domestic audience
but
well risky
Golden Dawn murder lover tossers are poised in the wings

 

[MochaSoul]

And, finally, though the Greeks got a bad deal, it was their electorate that voted for this government. In life you have to make choices, take responsibility and deal with the consequences. The Greeks haven't been forced to follow through on that process in a very long while and now they are getting shafted as a result but that's simply what happens when you take that route.

The Greek people also voted for PASOK et al, based on the lie that the Euro would be good for them. So did the Portuguese with a so called socialist party which is no different than Labour here. I'm also reminded of the thousands of left wingers in Britain who voted for the LibDems based on what they claimed to be their manifesto for 2010 and who were in effect rendered voiceless by their alliance with the tories... and let us not forget, the elephantine aside of FPTP which, by allowing for a party to get into power with 24% of the total vote, does, in realistic terms, silence the will of the British people. Still, an aside.
Parties have been lying, getting into power by lying and then they do what they planned to do all along (with the help of Goldman Sachs et al, vassals of whom they soon show themselves to be) by lying and cheating.
To lay the blame on the Greek people for its own shafting is especially more than just lazy thinking now as Tsipras/Varoufakis clearly demonstrate that the will of the people you are here blaming counts for fuck all in the whole scheme of things even as, they too, going by their own proposal to the Troika, show themselves not to be, particularly, with their people either.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

though the Greeks got a bad deal, it was their electorate that voted for this government. In life you have to make choices, take responsibility and deal with the consequences.

It wasn't Syriza that caused this crisis. It was the previous ones with their complicity in the violence imposed by the Troika.

The Greeks haven't been forced to follow through on that process in a very long while and now they are getting shafted as a result but that's simply what happens when you take that route.

Seven years of soaring suicide rates, utter destitution and mass unemployment not seen since the 20s/30s have passed you by then. Ordinary Greeks have been 'forced to follow through this process' for far too long. Why should they pay for the actions of a corrupt political and financial class?

 

[Roadkill]

And, finally, though the Greeks got a bad deal, it was their electorate that voted for this government. In life you have to make choices, take responsibility and deal with the consequences. The Greeks haven't been forced to follow through on that process in a very long while and now they are getting shafted as a result but that's simply what happens when you take that route.

Which government?! The ones that cooked the books for years, let tax dodging - especially by the very rich - run rampant and whose public accounts were a work of fiction? Papandreou's government that bottled out of pretty much the referendum that Syriza's now about to hold, buckled under and accepted the disastrous bailout deal? The rubbish technocratic one who no-one even voted for? Pikrammenos whom everyone's rightly forgotten about? Or the one people turned to after nothing else had worked?

Don't go turning this into some kind of morality play about lazy, feckless Greeks deserving what they get. That's straight out of the German gutter press and false on pretty much every count. Greeks on average work some of the longest hours in Europe, don't retire ludicrously early and don't borrow that much money.

 

[Coolfonz]

Both "capital strike" and "capital controls" are narrow formal economic terms. But you were not using the former in any sensible way. Rather, I think you were trying to make a broader, crude point that some massed ranks of anonymous banks are "bullying" Greece, betraying your lack of understanding of the situation, in particular with regard to the "troika".

But more importantly the polis votes for a government to represent them. The Greeks voted for a government to do just that. It looks like it is currently doing a very bad job, unsurprisingly given the egocentrism of Tsipras and Varoufakis.

In what way do you see T or V as being `egocentric?` I mean really, that is just an insult, one you appear to be repeating from Juncker.

And you also readily conflate the Greek people with the Greek state - your really very silly point about elections for example. The Greek people also elected Syriza did they not, having got fed up of the efforts - or lack of them - of previous administrations.

 

[Diamond]

Oh god - we've got to the end zone now, haven't we?

It's a democracy but there is no representative government!

No-one apart from a very small elite has any responsibility for an economy that incentivises people to retire (i) before 60, but also that they (ii) get more money for on their pension because they have children, no matter the age whatsoever?

Greece has been shafted but what it wants in the here and now is deeply unrealistic.

 

[J Ed]

In what way do you see T or V as being `egocentric?` I mean really, that is just an insult, one you appear to be repeating from Juncker.

...he doesn't really understand what is happening beyond the morality play narrative that has been spun, so he has to have goodies and baddies.

 

[Diamond]

...he doesn't really understand what is happening beyond the morality play narrative that has been spun, so he has to have goodies and baddies.

What is your analysis?

Forgive me if I am wrong, but it seems like you have little to offer so far...

 

[butchersapron]

Oh god - we've got to the end zone now, haven't we?

It's a democracy but there is no representative government!

No-one apart from a very small elite has any responsibility for an economy that incentivises people to retire (i) before 60, but also that they (ii) get more money for on their pension because they have children, no matter the age whatsoever?

Greece has been shafted but what it wants in the here and now is deeply unrealistic.

I don't think you know what an end zone is.