Greek elections

[butchersapron]

ask a proper question

What was success?

 

[Coolfonz]

I meant it didn't go well for the new party...doesn't have any seats. Or so it seems.

 

[gimesumtruf]

Alexis Tsipras what a waste of space. I just can't help thinking someone will wipe that stupid smile off his face before to long. I suppose you have to be Greek to understand why they voted him in again.

 

[belboid]

Good piece from Varoufakis - The lenders are the real winners in Greece – Alexis Tsipras has been set up to fail | Yanis Varoufakis

 

[phildwyer]

Good piece from Varoufakis - The lenders are the real winners in Greece – Alexis Tsipras has been set up to fail | Yanis Varoufakis

So it seems that all the elected politicians are now in favor of austerity, while all those who elected them oppose it.

How did this happen?

Seems to me there's a problem with representative democracy per se.

 

[J Ed]

Good piece from Varoufakis - The lenders are the real winners in Greece – Alexis Tsipras has been set up to fail | Yanis Varoufakis

Makes you wonder what would have happened if Varoufakis was allowed to take the measures he wanted to.

 

[butchersapron]

To go back to earlier discussion of Streeck, the free piece in the latest NLR is from him, titled alternatively Why The Euro Divides Europe/ The Concept of Money:

A landmark critique of Smithian notions of money as neutral medium of exchange, naturalized in social theory from Parsons to Habermas. Arguing instead for Weber’s concept of money as weapon in the market struggle, Wolfgang Streeck reveals how the single currency has transformed Europe’s qualitative horizontal diversity into quantitative vertical inequality.

 

[redsquirrel]

To go back to earlier discussion of Streeck, the free piece in the latest NLR is from him, titled alternatively Why The Euro Divides Europe/ The Concept of Money:

Ta for that butchers, definitely worth reading.

 

[yield]

Clashes break out as Greek general strike brings Athens to a halt
Thursday 12 November 2015

Clashes have broken out between riot police and protesters in central Athens during Greece’s first general strike since the leftist Syriza-led government came to power in January.

Nearly 25,000 people participated in three separate demonstrations in the capital on Thursday, according to police figures, in protest at a further round of bailout-related tax increases and spending cuts. Another 10,000 marched without incident through the country’s second largest city, Thessaloniki.

Lots of talk of aid for Turkey with the refugee crisis. Any more help for Greece coming?

 

[J Ed]

Not watched yet, but will do later and posting here as I'm sure others will be interested LSE lecture by new Greek Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Not watched yet, but will do later and posting here as I'm sure others will be interested LSE lecture by new Greek Finance Minister Euclid Tsakalotos

I watched this earlier. Euclid is a good un. Something tells me that he was educated in England. It was a rather optimistic view expressed earlier in the talk. However, later on he spoke of the limited time that was available for the changes and suggested two years as maximum. It is well worth a watch though especially if you have any sympathy with Syriza.

 

[Coolfonz]

Interview with Euclid Tsakalotos on Syriza, popular mobilisation, neo-liberalism etc by Paul Mason

 

[butchersapron]

Overview piece/interview from Kouvelakis in the new NLR:

Syriza's Rise and Fall

The inner-party restructuring went together with the rightward drift. From the summer of 2012 onwards, the position on the euro was transformed into a constant display of fidelity to the Eurozone. This was expressed in Tsipras’s trips to mainstream institutions, mainly in the US—the Brookings Institute and so on—but also much more exclusive places like the Ambrosetti Club, which played a crucial role in Italian politics during the 1970s and in the development of the ‘historic compromise’. It was in October 2013, at the LBJ School of Public Affairs in Austin, Texas, that he made the famous statement, ‘Greece should not exit the Eurozone: that would be a disaster for Europe’, which effectively shut down the debate. The drift was equally marked in relation to the debt. Eric Toussaint, who played a leading role on the Debt Audit Commission set up by Parliament Speaker Zoe Konstantopoulou, has confirmed that there was a clear shift by the Syriza leadership in the summer of 2012, when they reversed their previous position of repudiating the debt and mounting an international campaign against its legitimacy. The formulations in the party documents didn’t change, but it was the usual kind of double discourse: in the programme there are statements about socialism, no sacrifice for the euro, we will go forward whatever it takes, and so on; but these were no longer expressed publicly, especially not by Tsipras and the circle round him.

Second, from 2012 onwards, the type of political practice favoured by the Tsipras leadership didn’t move beyond parliamentarism. It was clear that Syriza wanted to bring down Samaras’s coalition, but only through parliamentary tactics, focusing on the presidential elections in late 2014. [2] They didn’t want a strategy of popular mobilizations to push the process forward. It’s true that the big wave of mobilizations in 2010, 2011, early 2012 had died down—precisely because the energies had now been diverted to the political level. But there was absolutely no perception of a defeat for those mobilizations at the time; the sense was just that we can’t achieve all that we want by occupying squares—we need a political and electoral alternative. At several points between 2013 and 2015 there were moments when mobilizations could have been relaunched: when Samaras shut down the public broadcasting company, ERT, in June 2013; the murder of Pavlos Fyssas by Golden Dawn in September of that year; the transport workers’ strike in early 2013, and potentially the teachers’ strikes in June and September 2013 as well.

 

[brogdale]

Overview piece/interview from Kouvelakis in the new NLR:

Syriza's Rise and Fall

That's as fascinating as it is depressing. Many parts worth quoting but these stood out for me:-

One reason why the Syriza leadership started backtracking in 2012, I think, is that they understood that if they had won the election, it would have been a confrontation that they couldn’t control. Before that, they had just been surfing on the dynamic of the situation. Despite the talk about smashing neoliberalism and so on, when it came to the real thing they got scared. That was the moment of truth. At the same time, they had a lot of illusions about what they could get from Europe. When Tsipras went to address what was, in a way, the real audience—the representatives of ruling circles in Europe and the US—the logic of what he was saying was: ‘Look, I’ll lay down my radicalism, of which you are rightly afraid, but in which I don’t genuinely believe. I see things differently now, and I’m ready to be a nice boy, much more reasonable than you think—but I should get something in return.’ He really believed he could get something—that was clear.

The result, you could say, was objectively the worst political betrayal perpetrated by any contemporary left-wing force—certainly in Europe. But ‘betrayal’ is an inadequate explanation. It has moralistic and psychological overtones, which are not particularly useful for political analysis.

 

[DotCommunist]

That's as fascinating as it is depressing. Many parts worth quoting but these stood out for me:-

​

what depressed me most was the bit about them inviting back in to the government bad eggs and corrupt politicos over the objections of the wider party and its voters. Thats where I sighed hard and the word 'capitulation' appeared in my head

 

[brogdale]

what depressed me most was the bit about them inviting back in to the government bad eggs and corrupt politicos over the objections of the wider party and its voters. Thats where I sighed hard and the word 'capitulation' appeared in my head

Indeed.

 

[ska invita]

IMF threatens to pull out of Greek rescue

 

[ska invita]

Rioters take to the streets ahead of Greek austerity vote

 

[butchersapron]

The Guardian has re-hashed a speech Yanis gave in 2013 explaining his 'erratic Marxism'...


Makes for quite an interesting read.

Harry Cleaver has finally published his commentary on this 'erratic maxism' - it's excellent, and is, despite being written in very early 2014 a) accurate about what would happen in greece/syrizia b) directly relevant to the eu referendum and the positions of many pro-eu types. I especially like the opening:

The context here, however, make it clear that this particular text is addressed at those to his "left" and aimed at convincing them that despite their (and his) better instincts we must fight to save capitalism; it's capitalisme ou barbarie, instead of socialisme ou barbarie.

The site is being well slow so if people have problems let me know and i'l upload a copy elsewhere.

 

[sunnysidedown]

The site isn't loading here. If you could upload a copy that would be great.

The site is being well slow so if people have problems let me know and i'l upload a copy elsewhere.

 

[butchersapron]

The site isn't loading here. If you could upload a copy that would be great.

Sure - just let me convert it to pdf and i'll edit it in here in a sec.

Annoyingly, converting it blurs it to unreadable, so i'll just have to upload it as doc i'm afraid.

Here

 

[brogdale]

IMF threatens to pull out of Greek rescue

And again...it's creeping up the news agenda...

The renewed focus on Greece’s debts came as the International Monetary Fund revealed its board was split over how far spending cuts in the country should go, raising fresh doubts over its participation in rescue plans for the struggling Greek economy.
The Washington-based fund has made repeated warnings that Greece’s debt burden of about €330bn (£280bn) is unsustainable despite the government pushing through spending cuts and tax increases that have badly hit popularity ratings for the government of prime minister Alexis Tsipras.

...as Varoufarkis repeatedly said.​

Shockingly bad graphic:-

 

[newbie]

but not much has changed, the Greek government still has zero bargaining power, because more people support the Euro than support any politicians.

voting intention rate for New Democracy is 25.8% against 15.6% of SYRIZA, while eight out of ten Greeks give a negative review of the government’s performance in the past two years.
...

Regarding the person most suitable for prime minister, an impressive 46% responded “no one,” with ND chief Kyriakos Mitsotakis getting 21% and Alexis Tsipras 12%.
...
Also, regarding the question of the return to the drachma, 31% of Greek citizens (and 39% of SYRIZA voters) are in favor of a return to the national currency, while 64% strongly support the view to remain in the euro zone.

- See more at: New Poll Shows New Democracy 10.2% Ahead of SYRIZA | GreekReporter.com

 

[ska invita]

And again...it's creeping up the news agenda...

...as Varoufarkis repeatedly said.​

Shockingly bad graphic:-

do you know what t, t+1 etc means?

 

[brogdale]

but not much has changed, the Greek government still has zero bargaining power, because more people support the Euro than support any politicians.

True, but with 10y bond yields edging up to 8% the markets are once again losing faith in the likelihood of Greece being properly bailed. That's the only change that matters.

 

[brogdale]

do you know what t, t+1 etc means?

Years after the 2008 crisis; T = time period (I think)

 

[ska invita]

Years after the 2008 crisis; T = time period (I think)

Ah yes, 100 = Pre-crisis peak, and then its those years....
Though that 100 value may be a very different starting point for the different crisis? Which may skew the reality...Anyhow it LOOKS BAD!!

but not much has changed, the Greek government still has zero bargaining power, because more people support the Euro than support any politicians.

I wonder if any politician is prepared to 'bargain' with the Greek people to drop the Euro?

 

[brogdale]

Ah yes, 100 = Pre-crisis peak, and then its those years....
Though that 100 value may be a very different starting point for the different crisis? Which may skew the reality...Anyhow it LOOKS BAD!!

I wonder if any politician is prepared to 'bargain' with the Greek people to drop the Euro?

Think of the "100" as 100% of the peak GDP that occurred preceding all 3 events; it doesn't matter that the absolute values would be wildly different, just that the % changes following the event are comparable.

 

[newbie]

Ah yes, 100 = Pre-crisis peak, and then its those years....
Though that 100 value may be a very different starting point for the different crisis? Which may skew the reality...Anyhow it LOOKS BAD!!

I wonder if any politician is prepared to 'bargain' with the Greek people to drop the Euro?

Greek politicians have been trying since before this thread started, but every time I ever look at the polls the Euro is more popular than they are.

I can't find it now but when I read the reports earlier I noticed a below the line comment that it's only the British press that cares about this "crisis", the German press doesn't think it matters at all. no idea if that's actually true or how to interpret it if it is

 

[belboid]

1. but not much has changed, the Greek government still has zero bargaining power, because more people support the Euro than support any politicians.

   
   That also shows more people want a return to the drachma than support any politician. And it's a massive rise in drachma supporters. Another round of enforced austerity and it is likely to change even more