Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[sihhi]

Nah pissing around in the student union and being an alumini of a private school and joeying about as an intern pretty much precludes a guy from being an alpha male, I reckon.

Except that being a leader of a student union or a student body - Malcolm Rifkind, Michael Heseltine, Jack Straw, Trevor Phillips, Lorna Fitzsimmons, Wes Streeting, David Aronovitch, Charles Clarke, John Reid - helps in politics. Political interning opens further doors later.

'Alpha male' wasn't my term in this thread, but he is a highly successful young adult male by the standards of mainstream society.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If someone is the elected president of the student union of a major university, graduated from a premier private school (Edinburgh's no.2 school), basically loaded, and already securing internships with senior powerful figures - then that is alpha male at that age.

Only insofar as it's a continuation of being reared to believe one is an "alpha male" if one "rules the roost" in some limited and ultimately ineffective capacity.
Would a true alpha male soil themselves with the sort of petty vindictiveness and sexism that Mr. Sibbald has displayed? I rather think not. The man is a legend inhis own lunchtime - that's as far as his alpha-maleness extends.

How is it an open goal - do you mean own goal?

I do.

Sandhurst doesn't really have the mania by itself does it? The private schools produce and drive forward people who quite consciously select British Army officership. They choose Sandhurst, don't they

Hobson's Choice, unless they've got the bottle and stamina to go the enlisted route and then go for a commission.

Obviously, Sandhurst is terrible in general. Women on the site are apparently called 'baggers' (needing a bag over their heads to stop them talking) by students/trainee officers.

Sandhurst is the worst of the military colleges, though. Their "selection procedure" is more skewed than Dartmouth (Dartmouth has historically preferred aptitude to where the candidate had their previous education) toward candidates who are of "sound stock" (as defined by having gonme to the "right" schools).

 

[Idris2002]

The "alpha male" thing originally comes from studies of wolf packs. The thing is, most of the early studies of wolves were either done on animals in capitivity or (IIRC) in areas where wolf populations had been decimated by human culling.

Left to themselves, it appears, wolves display different behaviours:

Abstract: The prevailing view of a wolf (Canis lupus) pack is that of a group of
individuals ever vying for dominance but held in check by the "alpha" pair, the alpha
male and the alpha female. Most research on the social dynamics of wolf packs, however,
has been conducted on non-natural assortments of captive wolves. Here I describe the
wolf-pack social order as it occurs in nature, discuss the alpha concept and social
dominance and submission, and present data on the precise relationships among members
in free-living packs based on a literature review and 13 summers of observations of
wolves on Ellesmere Island, Northwest Territories, Canada. I conclude that the typical
wolf pack is a family, with the adult parents guiding the activities of the group in a
division-of-labor system in which the female predominates primarily in such activities as
pup care and defense and the male primarily during foraging and food-provisioning and
the travels associated with them.

http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/basic/resources/mech_pdfs/267alphastatus_english.pdf

 

[Frances Lengel]

Except that being a leader of a student union or a student body - Malcolm Rifkind, Michael Heseltine, Jack Straw, Trevor Phillips, Lorna Fitzsimmons, Wes Streeting, David Aronovitch, Charles Clarke, John Reid - helps in politics. Political interning opens further doors later.

'Alpha male' wasn't my term in this thread, but he is a highly successful young adult male by the standards of mainstream society.

Maybe. And fair enough that alpha male wasn't your term, but there's no way I could possibly view the people named in your post as being in any way successful though. To me they seem like weirdos who had no option but to take the student union/internship route coz they'd have been hard pressed to survive in any other environment. I suppose the joke's on me in a way coz they're all getting paid a decent butty whereas I'm not, but could you imagine ever wanting to swap places with any of them? I certainly couldn't.

 

[ymu]

The colloquial use of the word never had much to do with how biologists use it. I'm using it (colloquially) to refer to the kinds of pressures patriarchal capitalism places on men (the mirror image of the pressures it places on women).

I don't think you get this kind of bullying backlash from individuals who feel secure in their position. People who feel secure don't generally feel the need to belittle others in order to boost their own self-esteem.

 

[sihhi]

Only insofar as it's a continuation of being reared to believe one is an "alpha male" if one "rules the roost" in some limited and ultimately ineffective capacity.
Would a true alpha male soil themselves with the sort of petty vindictiveness and sexism that Mr. Sibbald has displayed? I rather think not. The man is a legend inhis own lunchtime - that's as far as his alpha-maleness extends.

Yes, he made a tactical error. A more superior alpha male might have gathered more participants or roped in some middle-class female Glasgow students to mock via anti-Oxbridge-ism or less overt sexist insults (ie nothing about breasts as the rag describes it) the English debaters or just started generally murmur-booing, rumpling papers whenever the women spoke. He didn't cover himself well enough.

Niall Ferguson, for instance, is an "alpha male", sometimes he does it close to the start of his lectures. He makes a joke about his wife and debt and shoes and women being in charge of the economy, then adds that's a joke I love my wife dearly so no feminist objections please, disarming anyone who might want to make a feminist case in response.

 

[ymu]

That's not disarming, it's creepy. Also standard practice for a lot of male academics. Under the radar enough not to generate (many) complaints, blatant enough to put women at a disadvantage and tacitly tell male students that it is OK to behave like this.

 

[sihhi]

The colloquial use of the word never had much to do with how biologists use it. I'm using it (colloquially) to refer to the kinds of pressures patriarchal capitalism places on men (the mirror image of the pressures it places on women).

I don't think patriarchical capitalism places any kind of pressure on these sectors of the population. Capitalism gives him more money for little work and success/prestige. (I'm talking about Sibbald and his ilk.)

 

[ymu]

No pressure on men to behave badly? Come off it.

 

[Frances Lengel]

<snip>

Niall Ferguson, for instance, is an "alpha male"<snip>

Is he?

 

[sihhi]

No pressure on men to behave badly? Come off it.

Yes - not pressure, just knowlegde it won't be taken seriously and he can wriggle out of any minor consequences.

 

[Corax]

What's Glasgow Uni's demographic? My perception is that this kind of open misogyny is more prevalent in the posh and semi-posh these days*.

*and perhaps always? (ETA)

 

[sihhi]

What's Glasgow Uni's demographic? My perception is that this kind of open misogyny is more prevalent in the posh and semi-posh these days.

It's Russell Group and I think Scotland's premier university, pegging with Edinburgh, I don't know its ins and outs perhaps someone could clarify.

 

[xslavearcx]

im currently at glasgow uni and would say anecdotally its very middle class and a lot of the students seem to come from fee paying schools. So the class thing along with the fact that im mr ancient there, makes me feel like a fish outta water!

 

[equationgirl]

It's Russell Group and I think Scotland's premier university, pegging with Edinburgh, I don't know its ins and outs perhaps someone could clarify.

St Andrews, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen are the oldest universities in Scotland, and are generally thought of as the leading universities depending on subject. Certainly anyone doing law or medicine will have considered one or more of these depending on the career path they are looking at. Most private school pupils will end up at one of those if they can't get into Oxbridge - many English private school pupils are often pushed towards these choices too.

Certainly when I went to uni in the 1990s, those in the east went to Edinburgh and those in the west went to Glasgow.

I live very close to the university district in Glasgow. It does appear to attract, in the main, students from well-off families, but not exclusively so, and in common with many UK universities lots and lots of foreign students especially Chinese. Our very own tar1984 is thriving at Glasgow .

 

[two sheds]

pornography/media maybe. Changes in the way these are consumed.

I can't really tell and don't know how you'd quantify it but I get the impression that woman hating speach and attitudes are being more widely expressed.

Was late 80's- early 2000's an historic low point for sexism?

Just get used to it, people. In a few years statements like "that's a sexist view" or "that's a racist view" or "that's a homophobic view" or "that's a middle class view" could well be greeted with the urban refrain "FUCK OFF YOU LIBERAL CUNT".

 

[ViolentPanda]

Just get used to it, people. In a few years statements like "that's a sexist view" or "that's a racist view" or "that's a homophobic view" or "that's a middle class view" could well be greeted with the urban refrain "FUCK OFF YOU LIBERAL CUNT".

I somehow doubt it, because I suspect enough of us know that defending the collective rights of people (whether on grounds of race, gender or sexuality) not to be discriminated against isn't "liberal" (Liberalist behaviour being all about the rights of the individual), it's human.

 

[two sheds]

I somehow doubt it, because I suspect enough of us know that defending the collective rights of people (whether on grounds of race, gender or sexuality) not to be discriminated against isn't "liberal" (Liberalist behaviour being all about the rights of the individual), it's human.

I'm not sure those values are 'human' because such a large part of the human race doesn't seem to have a problem with sexism, racism or homophobia. So it'll be a bit of a fine point to argue while someone's shouting their "FUCK OFF YOU LIBERAL CUNT" at you.

I saw on a previous thread that you (I think anyway) distinguished between American liberals and UK liberals. I still don't really understand the difference. I've always been used to being thought a twat by right wingers because I'm against discrimination. It came as a surprise to be seen as a twat by left wingers for the same reasons.

Why does my being against discrimination become Liberal Cuntdom whereas your being against discrimination is wonderful and to be admired? I consider myself left wing, too, but does that mean I can't be in favour of rights of the individual? And being anti sexism, racism, homophobia are liberal traits but are they necessarily socialist ones? I'd have thought a lot of people who call themselves socialist wouldn't necessarily share them.

Fox News and the US shock jocks would have no doubts in calling virtually everyone on urban liberals (or commies, same thing), you're just in denial because you know in your heart of hearts that you're really a liberal cunt.

 

[Blagsta]

In Europe, liberals are pro capitalist free market, not communist.

 

[two sheds]

The Liberal Parties might be, but I'm not sure all liberals would agree. As I say, the defining quality of 'liberal' for me has been the being against discrimination, and as opposed to 'conservative'. It doesn't mean you'll necessarily vote Liberal. Like socialists wouldn't necessarily vote Labour.

Do people mean neo-liberals when they say liberals?

 

[Blagsta]

The Liberal Parties might be, but I'm not sure all liberals would agree. As I say, the defining quality of 'liberal' for me has been the being against discrimination, and as opposed to 'conservative'. It doesn't mean you'll necessarily vote Liberal. Like socialists wouldn't necessarily vote Labour.

Do people mean neo-liberals when they say liberals?

No. Liberalism has always meant that in Europe. Whigs and Tories?

My understanding is that the Liberal party evolved out of the Whigs to represent the new industrial middle class as opposed to the old remnants of the feudal class system. So free trade, but also a more liberal approach to social issues.

 

[equationgirl]

Delightful Spectator article claiming GUU are the victims of a smear campaign and that the ladies who complained need to grow up.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8857921/grow-up-girls/

Written by a conservative scot who was at GUU some time in the 1960s, and who I suspect has not realised the feminist movement actually happened.

 

[treelover]

I think the 'unilads' are going to get a rude awakening very soon on campus....

 

[stuff_it]

Maybe. And fair enough that alpha male wasn't your term, but there's no way I could possibly view the people named in your post as being in any way successful though. To me they seem like weirdos who had no option but to take the student union/internship route coz they'd have been hard pressed to survive in any other environment. I suppose the joke's on me in a way coz they're all getting paid a decent butty whereas I'm not, but could you imagine ever wanting to swap places with any of them? I certainly couldn't.

And just how do you think the current government would survive in open business, without any help or support from their families?

 

[treelover]

'If anyone is interested in the emergence of 'new lad' culture in the very early 1990s, Tim Southwell's memoir Getting Away with it The Inside Story of Loaded whilst a usual heap of empty anecdotes you get the feeling from his remarks that it is a middle-class grouping that felt itself hard-done-by in the changes in cultural output that happened in the 1980s (anti-Thatcher, soft-left, Rock against Sexism, pro-feminist, Red Wedge, alternative comedy). It wanted to be able to do sexism and chauvinism and saw that the best way to do this would be to openly declare itself intelligent, ironic and smart.
If you look carefully the new lad has a large dose of middle-class moulding.''


in the mid eighties I used to drink occassionally with a young M/C lad from Liverpool Uni, John Aldred, decent guy though not political, he was the brother of Sophie Aldred(Ace in Dr Who)

a few years ago i googled his name, well blow me down, he went on to become the editor of Loaded

fucking sad really...

oh, and James Brown used to write for the NME, just what happened...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Baxendale-Walker

oh, its new owner is a laywer for corporate tax dodgers and has a very chequered history..

edited for clarity

 

[Frances Lengel]

And just how do you think the current government would survive in open business, without any help or support from their families?

Well they wouldn't - That's what I was saying. I'm mildly confused as to how you seem to think we disagree with each other TBH.

 

[Frances Lengel]

'If anyone is interested in the emergence of 'new lad' culture in the very early 1990s, Tim Southwell's memoir Getting Away with it The Inside Story of Loaded whilst a usual heap of empty anecdotes you get the feeling from his remarks that it is a middle-class grouping that felt itself hard-done-by in the changes in cultural output that happened in the 1980s (anti-Thatcher, soft-left, Rock against Sexism, pro-feminist, Red Wedge, alternative comedy). It wanted to be able to do sexism and chauvinism and saw that the best way to do this would be to openly declare itself intelligent, ironic and smart.
If you look carefully the new lad has a large dose of middle-class moulding.''


in the mid eighties I used to drink occassionally with a young M/C lad from Liverpool Uni, Guy Aldred, decent guy though not political, he was the brother of Sophie Aldred(Ace in Dr Who)

a few years ago i googled his name, well blow me down, he went on to become the editor of Loaded

fucking sad really...

oh, and James Brown used to write for the NME, just what happened...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Baxendale-Walker

oh, its new owner is a laywer for corporate tax dodgers and has a very chequered history..

Brown's a wanker - I stopped reading Viz after that squealer bought it. And the NME has always been contemptible.

 

[treelover]

sorry, john aldred..

 

[treelover]

http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/blog_comments/loaded_editors_change_of_heart


not sure if this has been posted, another former editor of Loaded does a mea culpa...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

"He began to realise that there was a problem way back in 2004"
"But the real transformation occurred in 2009 when he had a son"

And now after all those years he writes an article in the Mail. Worthless media twat who thinks he knows the way the wind is blowing at any one time, basically.