Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[kabbes]

kabbes - i'm not sure if your description of those tests is accurate - from a brief scan of that paper the difference in results wasn't between

i) women doing a test and having to tick a box saying they are a woman, and
ii) women doing a test and not having to answer any gender questions

it was more a case of if they were told that the test they were doing had shown gender differences in the past in terms of outcome then those differing male/female outcomes were more likely to arise again than if they weren't told the results of previous tests in relation to gender differences

clearly this is still priming, but it's a bit different to what you describe - it's not some internal thing that says purely because i've reminded myself that i am a woman i will end up doing worse in this test than men of equivalent intelligence, but a response to a very specific of priming - which i would imagine may well arise if say two sets of men (or women) with different attributes done a test and they were primed with information that said one set of them usually did better or worse

There have been a lot more tests than those described in Stella's link though. Your (i) and (ii) tests are described in studies in my old favourite Delusions of Gender by Cordelia Fine.

It's a well-trodden path, basically, psychological experiment-wise.

 

[ymu]

I don't think so, because 'worse' is in comparison to the women who weren't primed, not the men.

It does seem odd that they wouldn't do the reverse as that would tell you a lot more about the experiment as you say.

Yes, I think that's right.

Although Stella's study won't be the only one. A literature search would come up with tens of thousands of hits and probably several hundred studies, all doing slightly different things. Psychologists turn these things out by the bucketload, and their approach to analysis and meta-analysis is still pretty primitive.

 

[ymu]

Some income disparity comes from career breaks, for sure, but does it make up the bulk of that disparity? Not in my mind. Not all women take career breaks for a start, not all women work part-time and many women are as or more experienced than their male counterparts. Yet women still earn, as kabbes pointed out, 1/5 less than a man doing the exact same job. Is this oppression? According to the wikipedia article on oppression, yes it is:
'Oppression is the exercise of authority or power in a burdensome, cruel, or unjust manner.[1] It can also be defined as an act or instance of oppressing, the state of being oppressed, and the feeling of being heavily burdened, mentally or physically, by troubles, adverse conditions, and anxiety.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression

The CRE published a study recently that had the overall paygap at 16%. Middle-class women who had had kids lost 4% of their lifetime earnings, compared to working-class women who lost 58% of their lifetime earnings if they had kids.

It's about career breaks. If you earn enough to afford childcare, you lose fuck all (unless your partner refuses to share childcare costs, or you have no partner to share childcare costs). If you don't, you are screwed.

I believe the problem is that women are now expected to do paid work as much as men are, but there is still no assumption that the male partner might therefore be equally responsible for childcare. That's changing as more women become the higher earner in a relationship, which is now a small majority in the twenty-somethings, I think, but the lack of affordable childcare, and the preponderance of dual income families making it difficult for single income families to match their purchasing power on rents etc, is the key feminist issue at the moment. IMO.

 

[revol68]

Also men's paternity leave in the UK is a joke, 2 weeks paid at about £130 quid and 4 weeks unpaid if you've been in a job more than a year.

 

[Citizen66]

Have you EVER noticed that urban75 is like a very small in-club where there is incredibly little variety of political opinion? There seems to be this assumption that the rest of right-minded folk in this country all hold far-left views like those expressed here. When in fact the reality is that almost NO ONE holds far left views out there, I don't know a single person (other than 2 people who also post here who I know irl) who is far-left.

Your all living in a bubble, but instead of wanting to discuss the views you hold, or look at it from a different angle, if anyone comes along and goes wtf or sees shit from a pov that isn't pretty far commie-left, they are told they are talking shit and pretty much slagged off straight away. Personally I'd like to see far more different views on here, more right wing views or just 'centre' views, so that stuff can be discussed and the whole debate can be seen.

Problem is, we get those 'debates' on a daily basis elsewhere in our lives be it at work or through family or whatever. Or at least I do, can't speak for anyone else I suppose. I actually find it pretty frustrating that left wing views, especially the more radical ones, can be seen as almost a niche subject at times. But I don't share the view that like everybody outside of urban75 is on the political right and that somehow validates that right wing thinking is the 'correct' view. Yes, lots of people are right of centre. I'd say most of my RL mates aren't though, they range from centre left to hard left. None of them post here. And it isn't difficult to see why they're to the left. You grow up in the NE of England and be shat on continually. The Tories will always be wankers for the bankers. The Far right are a little bit weird and fancy themselves as nutters. So what are you left with? Labour. New Labour let you down and then what? You move further left or you don't bother your brain with what's going on and blame immigrants instead. Which is precisely what the Tories want you to do.

 

[Greebo]

Problem is, we get those 'debates' on a daily basis elsewhere in our lives be it at work or through family or whatever. Or at least I do, can't speak for anyone else I suppose. I actually find it pretty frustrating that left wing views, especially the more radical ones, can be seen as almost a niche subject at times. But I don't share the view that like everybody outside of urban75 is on the political right and that somehow validates that right wing thinking is the 'correct' view. <snip>The Tories will always be wankers for the bankers. The Far right are a little bit weird and fancy themselves as nutters. So what are you left with? Labour. New Labour let you down and then what? You move further left or you don't bother your brain with what's going on and blame immigrants instead. Which is precisely what the Tories want you to do.

Word.

 

[Blagsta]

Lots of people express left wing ideas in everyday life. Like wanting utility companies to be run for the benefit of the people, to defending the NHS etc.

 

[kabbes]

What the fuck is "everyday life" anyway?

I'm not sure many people here proclaiming the everydayness of their everyday lives would recognise much from my everyday life. We all have different everyday lives, which makes them rather less than everyday in their everdayness.

 

[5t3IIa]

Edie - you think its normal for men to use prostitutes. Just goes to show how "normal" can vary eh.

I've been thinking about this and I have to add to what ymu has already said.

This is a textbook (literally textbook, see cites of Steele 1997) example of oppression. You know you can shut down Edie by reminding her she was a whore.

I would seriously suggest you get some counselling to help you work through this. Doubly so if you're still in any kind of service provision for vulnerable people

 

[Blagsta]

I've been thinking about this and I have to add to what ymu has already said.

This is a textbook (literally textbook, see cites of Steele 1997) example of oppression. You know you can shut down Edie by reminding her she was a whore.

I would seriously suggest you get some counselling to help you work through this. Doubly so if you're still in any kind of service provision for vulnerable people

I didn't say anything about her being a "whore" - the only person that has mentioned that is you. I suggest you take your own suggestion on board and take a long hard look at yourself and your need to stir shit up - wasn't it you who started a hate campaign on Facebook about a poster here?

For the record - me and Edie are cool, we have discussed things via PM.

You on the other hand are a nasty piece of work.

 

[5t3IIa]

I didn't say anything about her being a "whore" - the only person that has mentioned that is you. I suggest you take your own suggestion on board and take a long hard look at yourself and your need to stir shit up - wasn't it you who started a hate campaign on Facebook about a poster here?

For the record - me and Edie are cool, we have discussed things via PM.

You on the other hand are a nasty piece of work.

You're angry because you know I'm right

 

[Blagsta]

You're angry because you know I'm right

You have some serious issues. The only person mentioning Edie's past is you. You are one spiteful fuck up of a person.

 

[ddraig]

out of order 5t3lla
and not needed

 

[love detective]

jesus fuck, it seemed obvious to me that the point was a general one about the subjectiveness of normal - what a weird thread

 

[5t3IIa]

You have some serious issues. The only person mentioning Edie's past is you. You are one spiteful fuck up of a person.

Uh? Have you forgotten the exchange? She mentioned normal, you said she had no idea of normal because of her views on prostitution. SLAM. Shut down.

 

[ddraig]

'views on' not what you are banging on about and blowing up

 

[Blagsta]

Uh? Have you forgotten the exchange? She mentioned normal, you said she had no idea of normal because of her views on prostitution. SLAM. Shut down.

Go back and read what I actually wrote. Not what your twisted spiteful brain thinks I wrote.

You're the one outing Edie. You are one fucked up excuse for a human being.

 

[Edie]

Look there's no need to go here. Blags is right, we've sorted this out via PM. I know that I've posted stuff in the past that I'm touchy as fuck about people now bringing up (cos I instantly see it as a put down) and that is both stupid and unfair to other people. No one needs to out me btw, everyone fuckin knows I know I lack ANY kind of objectivity (find it impossible to know where my experiences end and opinions begin). So for me it's best to just read these kinds of threads in the future. Which I'll do.

The CRE published a study recently that had the overall paygap at 16%. Middle-class women who had had kids lost 4% of their lifetime earnings, compared to working-class women who lost 58% of their lifetime earnings if they had kids.

It's about career breaks. If you earn enough to afford childcare, you lose fuck all (unless your partner refuses to share childcare costs, or you have no partner to share childcare costs). If you don't, you are screwed.

I believe the problem is that women are now expected to do paid work as much as men are, but there is still no assumption that the male partner might therefore be equally responsible for childcare. That's changing as more women become the higher earner in a relationship, which is now a small majority in the twenty-somethings, I think, but the lack of affordable childcare, and the preponderance of dual income families making it difficult for single income families to match their purchasing power on rents etc, is the key feminist issue at the moment. IMO.

^^ THIS is where it's at.

 

[5t3IIa]

Go back and read what I actually wrote. Not what your twisted spiteful brain thinks I wrote.

You're the one outing Edie. You are one fucked up excuse for a human being.

Now you're trying to shut me down by saying I'm 'spiteful'? You're doing precisely what I'm saying you're doing, instead of considering THAT IS THE ACTUAL PROBLEM

 

[kabbes]

It's not just about career breaks. It's also about the perception of possible career breaks -- and specifically childcaring career breaks and the fact that this childcaring is disproportionately shouldered by women. It's also about the deeply embedded attitudes to women that are layered into us long before we have the rational capacity to reason these things out that creates well-established biases, such as the fact that 70% of citizens in 34 counties in an IAT test of 4.5 million people notably associated science with men rather than women (see introduction to the interesting "Wilful Blindness" by Margaret Hefferman).

The paygap mentioned is only on the basis of like-for-like jobs. But women are systematically passed over for promotions and managerial positions, as evidenced by the fact that about 8% of board positions are occupied by women, despite the organisations being 50/50 at the front line. That's not just a career break thing (I know plenty of men on the corporate latter that are taking or have taken career breaks in the form of sabbaticals without it affecting them at all). It's not even a working-class thing, since we are talking about middle-class positions. It's a systemic problem.

 

[Citizen66]

'views on' not what you are banging on about and blowing up

'views on' and 'personal experiences' arent somehow divorced from each other. In fact, one can inform the other.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Edie - you think its normal for men to use prostitutes. Just goes to show how "normal" can vary eh.

Seeing how many prostitutes there are in the world, it would seem that it is entirely normal for men to use their services.

Nice oppressive dig though.

 

[kabbes]

I've never met a prostitute, so I'm pretty sure that their existence is actually just a rumour to be honest.

 

[Citizen66]

I dont think we can go down the avenue of % of people doing something = benchmark for normal. Isnt that what the far right do in regards to homosexualty etc?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I dont think we can go down the avenue of % of people doing something = benchmark for normal. Isnt that what the far right do in regards to homosexualty etc?

I would imagine the word normal has something to do with the norm, which a kabbes type person could formulate scientifically for us...

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I've never met a prostitute, so I'm pretty sure that their existence is actually just a rumour to be honest.

They're mythical, like Eskimos.

 

[kabbes]

They're mythical, like Eskimos.

I used to be an Eskimo, but now I'm just not Inuit.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I would imagine the word normal has something to do with the norm, which a kabbes type person could formulate scientifically for us...

It is 'normal' for any given population of human beings to contain significant diversity.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It is 'normal' for any given population of human beings to contain significant diversity.

See? It's shit like this that stopped my ambitions to be an actuary dead in their tracks.

 

[kabbes]

I define "Normal" as follows: