Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]

[Das Uberdog]

i don't know how my argument has got confused for saying that i don't think it's a big deal, or that it doesn't happen at all. even my statement that it wouldn't surprise me if attacks had reduced was actually a very small part of what i said.

the main point is that i think you're looking in the wrong direction if you think that these kids cracking the 'jokes' doing so because they don't think it's serious. what i'm saying is that it becomes a joke exactly BECAUSE it is serious

 

[stuff_it]

You're assuming that women report it. They don't. See purenarcotic's post.

I reported one rape, the police were sympathetic but fairly useless. The next time someone tried to rape me (I kicked their head in) I didn't bother to report it, couldn't really see the point. Could have landed myself with an assault charge if anything.

 

[equationgirl]

They are horrifying. Sadly not surprising though. I would be surprised if it were anything new, although Kaka Tim may have a point about society in the past. Problem is that we can't really know. If reporting is a massive problem now, it was a far worse problem half a century ago.

Or even 100 years ago. Rape was considered only to happen to lower class women of loose morals, and it certainly didn't happen within marriages (because a man couldn't legally rape his wife). I'd be surprised if it was reported at all.

 

[Das Uberdog]

If could just as well be the case that rape was less common pre WW2. Women were more closely shaporaned, less likely to be in vunerbale situations. Those that did go to college were strictly segregated from males. A women alone in private space with a man who was not her husband or son would be seriously frowned upon. <snip>

when you read accounts and biogs from the pre-WW2 period though, it's mad stuff. all the shared accomodation, roving bachelors, etc... in working class areas, especially in crowded urban areas, there was sordid and violent behaviour we can't even imagine today

 

[stuff_it]

i don't know how my argument has got confused for saying that i don't think it's a big deal, or that it doesn't happen at all. even my statement that it wouldn't surprise me if attacks had reduced was actually a very small part of what i said.

the main point is that i think you're looking in the wrong direction if you think that these kids cracking the 'jokes' doing so because they don't think it's serious. what i'm saying is that it becomes a joke exactly BECAUSE it is serious

I still counter 'does that mean racist and homophobic jokes are ok too'?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

what i'm saying is that it becomes a joke exactly BECAUSE it is serious

Don't think that works, though. For instance, you probably wouldn't hear such people joking about fucking their baby sister, or something. Why? Because they would suspect it would reflect badly on them. So to some extent, the man telling the rape joke is judging that his audience isn't going to think he's a creep because of it.

 

[equationgirl]

i don't know how my argument has got confused for saying that i don't think it's a big deal, or that it doesn't happen at all. even my statement that it wouldn't surprise me if attacks had reduced was actually a very small part of what i said.

the main point is that i think you're looking in the wrong direction if you think that these kids cracking the 'jokes' doing so because they don't think it's serious. what i'm saying is that it becomes a joke exactly BECAUSE it is serious

Well your argument was quite long to start with. what we're disputing is your assertion that a) rape occurrence is decreasing since WW2 and b) it's fully reported.

 

[equationgirl]

when you read accounts and biogs from the pre-WW2 period though, it's mad stuff. all the shared accomodation, roving bachelors, etc... in working class areas, especially in crowded urban areas, there was sordid and violent behaviour we can't even imagine today

Um, there weren't blogs from the pre-WW2 period - unless the blogs are faithful literal versions of diaries.

What have you been reading? Do you have links to it? I'm intrigued?

 

[Das Uberdog]

I still counter 'does that mean racist and homophobic jokes are ok too'?

i think with all of these situations you have to know the people you're joking with very personally and know it's not going to be taken the wrong way.

Don't think that works, though. For instance, you probably wouldn't hear such people joking about fucking their baby sister, or something. Why? Because they would suspect it would reflect badly on them. So to some extent, the man telling the rape joke is judging that his audience isn't going to think he's a creep because of it.

actually, i think that happens a hell of a lot! incest and paedo jokes have been increasing in step with their growing social seriousness as well. all the dead baby stuff etc, it's all over sickipedia.

your assertion that a) rape occurrence is decreasing since WW2 and b) it's fully reported

i asserted neither of those two things

 

[Das Uberdog]

Um, there weren't blogs from the pre-WW2 period - unless the blogs are faithful literal versions of diaries.

What have you been reading? Do you have links to it? I'm intrigued?

i can't babysit you, just go read Down and Out in London and Paris or anything. i've just finished reading Joe Jacob's 'out of the ghetto' too, not too much specific detail in there but if you have some historical knowledge about the social context then you can figure things out, esp with relation to his siblings. also read Engels condition of the working class in England, what? loads of stuff. ffs

 

[purenarcotic]

i still think that attitude (i.e. 'she was asking for it') is demonstrably less prevalent now than in the past. and also, as others have pointed out, for whatever the stats are worth it's not normally after a night on the piss that it happens to people.. it's usually in the context of controlled family/social circle environments.

when you look back at 70s and 80s TV (some episodes of Topof the Pops are fucking appalling (check out the intro to The Strawbs here from Jimmy Saville, leching over teenage 'girlies' - eeeuurgh)... i just can't see the 'good rape'/'bad rape' being anywhere near as prominent today as the past

no it doesn't necessarily, but i wouldn't be surprised if it did. for starters, even discounting cultural factors and awareness, it's probably a lot harder to get away with today than in the past where there was the whole issue of stifling communal morality operating against victims

when you read accounts and biogs from the pre-WW2 period though, it's mad stuff. all the shared accomodation, roving bachelors, etc... in working class areas, especially in crowded urban areas, there was sordid and violent behaviour we can't even imagine today

It seems pretty clear to me your assertion is that things are considerably better today than they used to be.

 

[Das Uberdog]

in terms of cultural attitudes, yes, and that has begrudgingly been accepted by several other people on the thread now too

 

[purenarcotic]

I don't think cultural attitudes are considerably better at all. They are better, yes, but considerably? God no.

You only have to watch one set of TV adverts to see that gender stereotyping and gender roles have gone nowhere, and women, especially 'sexy' women are used to sell products.

I remember a few years back. Aero did an advert clearly aimed at women using a very well muscled / toned / attractive man dressed in nothing but a towel. The advert had to be pulled because lots of men phoned OfCom and complained they didn't like men being objectified in this way. Oh the irony, is all I can really say.

Yes, things really are considerably better, aren't they.

 

[equationgirl]

i asserted neither of those two things

Yes you did, in your post (#361) and after that:

Here is your assertion:

'it's because now more than ever, in most modern Western societies, people are aware of how inappropriate and base such behaviours are. i don't have statistics to hand on this (and i think that all statistics on the issue are probably misleading) but tbh i wouldn't be surprised if rates of actual sexual assaults had been pretty steadily on the decrease since post-war.'

And as for a request to links for source material, that's standard on urban, when people start making assertions that upon probing they can't back up. You're the one who hasn't bothered to understand anything about the topic not me.

 

[Kaka Tim]

But the trivilisation of rape by the likes of unilad show cultural attitudes going in precisely the opposite direction.

(repsonse to das uberdogs post above)

 

[equationgirl]

I don't think cultural attitudes are considerably better at all. They are better, yes, but considerably? God no.

You only have to watch one set of TV adverts to see that gender stereotyping and gender roles have gone nowhere, and women, especially 'sexy' women are used to sell products.

I remember a few years back. Aero did an advert clearly aimed at women using a very well muscled / toned / attractive man dressed in nothing but a towel. The advert had to be pulled because lots of men phoned OfCom and complained they didn't like men being objectified in this way. Oh the irony, is all I can really say.

Yes, things really are considerably better, aren't they.

If I see one more air freshener advert where the woman receives approving glances from a man for having a nice smelling house, I may not be responsible for my actions.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But the trivilisation of rape by the likes of unilad show cultural attitudes going in precisely the opposite direction.

Not necessarily. That website was instantly pulled and they got into all kinds of trouble for it. The internet allows instant publishing, which is bound to lead to more ill-considered things being published, but I think we should be cautious about reading too much significance into this. Truth is - as unilad has found out to its cost - most cultural attitudes are firmly against them, hence it being almost instantly pulled.

 

[stuff_it]

Not necessarily. That website was instantly pulled and they got into all kinds of trouble for it. The internet allows instant publishing, which is bound to lead to more ill-considered things being published, but I think we should be cautious about reading too much significance into this. Truth is - as unilad has found out to its cost - most cultural attitudes are firmly against them, it would seem.

Have you looked on that student forum?

TSR is a hotbed of massive RW cock-brained fail.

 

[equationgirl]

Not necessarily. That website was instantly pulled and they got into all kinds of trouble for it. The internet allows instant publishing, which is bound to lead to more ill-considered things being published, but I think we should be cautious about reading too much significance into this. Truth is - as unilad has found out to its cost - most cultural attitudes are firmly against them, it would seem.

Except they published it in the first place. Even 10 years ago I'm not sure it would have been published.

 

[purenarcotic]

If I see one more air freshener advert where the woman receives approving glances from a man for having a nice smelling house, I may not be responsible for my actions.

Don't forget Mr Muscle, coming to save the poor, helpless dear. And Calgon, where apparently only women do the laundry. And Vax, and Maggi 'so juicy' range, and Philadelphia, where women only cook the family meals, and that alpha romeo ad where it goes 'I am julietta and I am sleek blah blah blah'. You don't see the woman, but it's the sex appeal selling the car.

I could go on and on. But like you, I may become incandescent with rage.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Have you looked on that student forum?

TSR is a hotbed of massive RW cock-brained fail.

Is it? No I haven't looked. I'll take your word for it, if that's alright.

Maybe I'm wrong - but the reaction that caused this to be pulled at the very least means that there are plenty of people still who strongly object to this kind of thing. In that sense, I'm not sure so much has changed.

 

[stuff_it]

I know this article is from another thread, but it gives a good oversight about how society has seen gender roles through the way they dress their children, or some such poncey shite: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html?c=y&page=2

I wouldn't say there have been any improvements.

 

[Kaka Tim]

Except they published it in the first place. Even 10 years ago I'm not sure it would have been published.

This - I'm sure student campuses were far more clued up on these sort of issues in the 80s. The fact that they felt it was fine to publish - and the reaction of their readers on the face book page - are very telling.

 

[purenarcotic]

I know this article is from another thread, but it gives a good oversight about how society has seen gender roles through the way they dress their children, or some such poncey shite: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html?c=y&page=2

I wouldn't say there have been any improvements.

Stuff with kids happens frighteningly early. Skelton's work is a good place to start on gender in the school, especially in relation to the myth of 'boys underachievement'.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Yes you did, in your post (#361) and after that:

Here is your assertion:

'it's because now more than ever, in most modern Western societies, people are aware of how inappropriate and base such behaviours are. i don't have statistics to hand on this (and i think that all statistics on the issue are probably misleading) but tbh i wouldn't be surprised if rates of actual sexual assaults had been pretty steadily on the decrease since post-war.'

And as for a request to links for source material, that's standard on urban, when people start making assertions that upon probing they can't back up. You're the one who hasn't bothered to understand anything about the topic not me.

yeah so i didn't assert that they had reduced did i, i said and i repeat for the umpteenth time that i wouldn't be surprised if they had

not that you're interested in actually discussing this

 

[littlebabyjesus]

This - I'm sure student campuses were far more clued up on these sort of issues in the 80s. The fact that they felt it was fine to publish - and the reaction of their readers on the face book page - are very telling.

You might be right. tbh I'm not the best person to ask about the attitudes of the average 20-year-old, but I can say that back when I was a 20-year-old 20 years ago, there were plenty of men around whose attitude to women stank.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Except they published it in the first place. Even 10 years ago I'm not sure it would have been published.

if they had the internet and low budget 'publications' like this unilad thing back then then maybe it would have been

 

[purenarcotic]

Except we've posted evidence to suggest the situation is still remarkably grim and you don't seem to want to accept that.

 

[equationgirl]

Stuff with kids happens frighteningly early. Skelton's work is a good place to start on gender in the school, especially in relation to the myth of 'boys underachievement'.

My sister-in-law fought very hard to instill gender neutral attitudes in my nephews. All her hard work was undone the minute her eldest went to school. We've since had 'girls can't be engineers' - I'm one - 'pink is for girls' and 'girls are skanks'. He's 5.

 

[trashpony]

Stuff with kids happens frighteningly early. Skelton's work is a good place to start on gender in the school, especially in relation to the myth of 'boys underachievement'.

Please can you elaborate? I'm interested (sorry that sounds a bit sarky - I really AM interested!)