Absolutely, he was just the one to spring to the top of my mind.
Go on... rape her... she won't report it... [UniLad magazine article]
- Thread starter LiamO
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Absolutely, he was just the one to spring to the top of my mind.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
"It's just a joke", doesn't cut any ice with me. A joke is a form of discourse and some jokes, particularly those told by the likes of Granada TV's The Comedians and now those being told by younger performers, reinforce dominant power relations.
Post-irony is a get out clause for bullies and scumbags.
Post-irony is a get out clause for bullies and scumbags.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
I hope I don't sound like some conspiraloon, but it's also interesting how celebrity culture and gangsta rap emerged at roughly the same time.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
There's still a real culture of 'needing to be careful' amongst normally sensible women. A mate and I had to walk either the long way around or diagonally across a fairly well lit park with a dodgy rep the other night and she still asked if we should take the short cut or not.
I pointed out that as she knows kung fu and I kicked a rapist's head in on there a couple of years ago we were probably ok to cut across, but tbf a student lass on her own after a night out cut through the not very well lit bit at the other end a few months back and had her face slashed.
Broadly yes, until relatively recently I would have said actually it's OK to make otherwise offensive jokes if you're 100% sure of the company - and depending on context (not that I've ever found jokes about sexual violence funny mind), but then I found out someone I really wouldn't expect it of (which is a whole other issue, because I know you can never tell) is a victim of DV, and I know I've made jokes about that in front of her.
The trick is to think about what is simply an offensive joke, and what is a joke that reinforces oppression - they are and should be two seperate things, one can be used in certain situations and one frankly we should be making people feel very small for using.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
There's still a real culture of 'needing to be careful' amongst normally sensible women. A mate and I had to walk either the long way around or diagonally across a fairly well lit park with a dodgy rep the other night and she still asked if we should take the short cut or not.
I pointed out that as she knows kung fu and I kicked a rapist's head in on there a couple of years ago we were probably ok to cut across, but tbf a student lass on her own after a night out cut through the not very well lit bit at the other end a few months back and had her face slashed.
i get like that too sometimes to be fair. especially in areas i'm unfamiliar with.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
No. I was making a the point that you make a simarly evidence free assumption to counter Das Uberdogs one that he 'wouldn't be suprised if sexual violence had decreased since WW2'.
Of course women were subject to sexual violence pre WW2, and working class women would likley have been more vunerable.
But its probably true that in many circumstances (i.e. higher education) women were less likely to be in vunerable situations then they are today becasue of different attitudes to how single - or unaccompanied - women should behave. (Simailar to how many muslim women are expected to behave by their community nowadays).
Its more that the circumstnaces in which sexual violence happens may be somewhat different today to what was the case 50odd years ago because society is different.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I read a really good blog article that I can't find now, but it was basically a guy talking about his 'lightbulb moment'. He was working late with a female colleague, and was surprised when she asked him to walk her to her car. He realised how little he understood, as a man, how threatening the world can be to women. His conclusion was good. "We need to just shut the fuck up and listen".There's still a real culture of 'needing to be careful' amongst normally sensible women. A mate and I had to walk either the long way around or diagonally across a fairly well lit park with a dodgy rep the other night and she still asked if we should take the short cut or not.
I pointed out that as she knows kung fu and I kicked a rapist's head in on there a couple of years ago we were probably ok to cut across, but tbf a student lass on her own after a night out cut through the not very well lit bit at the other end a few months back and had her face slashed.
Lots of men on here could do with following that advice, tbh. As could others when the issue is racism or homophobia or disability. It is very hard for members of a group that has all the power to understand what the hell everyone else is going on about, especially if they start from the assumption that they already know.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
We've both lived round there on and off for years.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
i think i know where you mean. but i get like that too.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
Just to pick up toggles/kaka's point, my mum has talked about this a few times. She grew up in a rough, working class environment, and whilst not ness. 'chaperoned' to/from work, she said that she and her peers were barely able to go anywhere without being under the watch of her father either directly of via her older brothers (who were often established to keep an eye on her 'safety', the 'boys she was with', etc.).
She often relays the story of being the age of 16-18 (which was the early-mid 60s), and dating my dad, her father would be standing outside by 10pm looking at his pocket watch repeatedly to make sure she was 'in' before going out to find her, she daren't not be in. By the end of the 60s she says women - perhaps 5-10 years younger than her, were already experiencing more freedom than her, and so the dynamic of experiencing and being at risk of sexual assault/violence had changed, even if the actual chances of being so didn't.
She often relays the story of being the age of 16-18 (which was the early-mid 60s), and dating my dad, her father would be standing outside by 10pm looking at his pocket watch repeatedly to make sure she was 'in' before going out to find her, she daren't not be in. By the end of the 60s she says women - perhaps 5-10 years younger than her, were already experiencing more freedom than her, and so the dynamic of experiencing and being at risk of sexual assault/violence had changed, even if the actual chances of being so didn't.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
TBF I wouldn't do the same short cut on my own if it was really late.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I think the only test is whether the joke is aimed at the victim or the perpetrator. We joke about sexism, racism and homophobia all the time - but the joke is always aimed at the bigot.
purenarcotic
Conveniently Pocket Sized
Muslim women suffer from plenty of sexual abuse. In Saudia Arabia, rape is perceived as the woman's fault and she can actually be imprisoned for it while the man walks free, because she shamed her family. I realise Saudi is an extreme example, but the Islamic community in the UK has just as many issues surrounding sexual abuse and rape as any other community. They may not speak out about it as much, but that's to do with cultural issues, not because it happens any less.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yeah, i get like that too. i don't mind when it's well lit and there are people around. but i do get freaked out walking back from places at night.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
It freaks me out when I see women going about at night on their own with headphones in!
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
To use a comedy term: it's all about timing. But it's about good writing too. Hacks will have absolutely no idea of power relations (or will completely ignore them) and will do anything to get that all-important laughter.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
We live on the towpath, so I don't get much choice about taking dodgy routes. The boy offers to come with me, but fuck that - I'm not giving up my autonomy just because there's some fucked-up arseholes out there. The only reasonable form of protection women need is a society that wholeheartedly condemns this behaviour.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
And now we have some local councils turning off street lights late at night but then rationalising their decision by hiding behind 'green' issues or 'efficiencies'.
stuff_it
Too skool for cool
I must admit I was a bit suprised when my partner first asked me to meet her coming back from the pub, as we live in an area that is less than 20 minutes from town and not at all dodgy really and she is no shrinking violet, but she says all the same things frogwoman and stuffit are saying...
It's shit really isn't it?
It's shit really isn't it?
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
The thing is that, in retrospect, it seems like there was only ever a tiny, tiny time and space where there was a slight cultural shift away from gross and accepted public sexism. There were dolly birds and page 3 and gleefully sexist celebs and films in the 70s and 80s galore, there was a short period when you could be publicly condemned in media circles for that and seen as a dinosaur, and then, wham, in the 90s the backlash hit. You can see directly where it came from by the retro culture that it idolised - from directly before the 80s.
totally agree - that was part of the problem, mistaking this tiny backslapping self congratulatry space as symptomatic of wider society.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
My stepmother was quite clear to me when I was a teenager (a big six foot one in a leather jacket) and starting to go out late at night that I should not walk behind women on the street, and certainly not accelerate if I found myself behind them, and if I couldn't avoid that then I should actually cross the road and walk on the other side. Initially I was a bit outraged that I was being stereotyped as if I was a potentially violent thug - particularly given that I was pretty scared walking about late at night myself, at 13 or 14 - but then when you think about the situation and realise that it's not people being silly you realise how fucked up it is and how selfish whinging about how awful it is being stereotyped as a man is as well.
Now you mention it, my mum always told me the same - not that I'm 6 foot or would be seen dead in a leather jacket... I was never offended though, didn't think it through that much.
ymu
Niall Ferguson's deep-cover sock-puppet
I have a fuck off big bunch of keys on a short rope. If I have footsteps behind me, I stick my hand in my pocket and get ready to swing it if need be. If I ever need to go that far, the next step would be to try and incapacitate them via a well-aimed kick to the bollocks.
I've noticed that some men will cross the road before I have to, if they realise that it's intimidating them walking behind me. To all the men who do this, thanks!
I've noticed that some men will cross the road before I have to, if they realise that it's intimidating them walking behind me. To all the men who do this, thanks!
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