Getting a good cup of coffee - again - is "espresso" really "best" ?

[gentlegreen]

This morning at work I kept smelling coffee, so broke my rule of reserving it for the weekend - where on a good day I'll have some lovely nutty Guatemala beans from the one good shop in Bristol - a 10 mile hilly round trip by bike, so the beans can have been in the bag for several weeks.

Even crudely smashed to bits with a knackered old Moulinex whizzer, it makes tasty coffee in a cafetiere - even though I make it carelessly.

Failing that, M&S does a quite pleasant Fairtrade Kenyan - ready ground, but still drinkable even after a week or two...

Today I went to the café area with the best reputation and had a single shot of "Illy" espresso in a cup with rather less hot water added than would qualify it as "americano" ...

It was smooth, no hint of bitterness, but was only drinkable because of the Danish I bought to go with it.

I break all the rules when I make my coffee at home, but I seem to be able to appreciate it even if it's a bit bitter or has grounds still in it.

I keep thinking of buying a hand grinder and an Aeropress, but never get around to it ...

 

[FridgeMagnet]

You really, really notice the difference between a proper grinder and a whizzy blade job. Cafetieres are more forgiving than, say, a moka pot, but suddenly all those nasty bitter notes that you thought were part of coffee and you could put up with are gone.

I use a cafetiere almost all the time at home, it makes very good coffee. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's generally considered one of the best methods to properly get all the flavour. That's how it is in my experience, anyway. Doing it "properly" isn't hard, you just grind to the right size, use enough coffee, heat the pot up a bit before you put the water in, and don't leave it too long.

 

[TruXta]

Cafetieres do make nice coffee, but I find I always have to put in a fuckload to make it strong enough. I like my coffee strong and black.

 

[dilute micro]

Don't drink espresso - drink coffee the right way.

 

[mrs quoad]

IMO, the difficulty is that (IMO) the 'best' cafe (as you describe it) is serving shit. Illy - even at its best - is never going to be comparable to this. If it's pre-ground, even worse. If it's been sitting in a grinder for x hours, again, even worse. If it's put through a machine that's just 'hit a button and wait for the requisite amount of water to pour through the portafilter,' you're - again - asking for trouble.

If you're comparing fresh-ground (of some kind) with Illy, the Illy is likely to come out worse. It's also... well... a different kind of cup. It'll be dark roast. It's a blend of Quite a Few beans, in order to be able to replicate the same flavour year after year (crops / weather conditions worldwide can make a huge impact on the flavour and quality of beans; my understanding is that Lavazza, certainly, use enough different beans in their blend to ensure all the 'differences' are smoothed out / homogenised, year-on-year. I'm guessing Illy do likewise). It'll be aiming for - tbh - a 'coffee-flavoured' cup of coffee. Where 'coffee-flavoured' is a pretty bland middle-ground.

Compare what you're drinking at home with, e.g., Square Mile's espresso blend / current single origin espresso, put through a grinder, used within a couple of minutes, and put through an reasonable-quality espresso machine by someone who's got a pretty good idea what it and they are doing - and you might find something different. There are proper espresso geeks out there. Who I can't even begin to approach, with my levels of geekness. And espresso can be a beautiful, rich, complex experience. Full of geekery, and all kinds of flavours, and all kinds of different cups. One of my espresso machines (Isomac Zaffiro) is pump-driven, consistent 9.25 bar (with a manometer), a thermometer plugged in the front so I'm getting constant real-time temperature readings from about 1" above the puck. The other one is an Elektra Micro Casa a Leva - looks like a piece of Nazi war memorabilia, and is basically an open boiler with a spring-powered lever. It works at, I believe, a pressure gradient of between 7 and 5 bar, and the temperature is almost completely unregulated - you have to play around a lot, and know the time window in which you'll get 2 good shots (ha).

Put the same beans in the same 2 machines, and you'll get completely different shots. The Zaffiro - rich, deep, buttery, thick. Tonnes of crema. Big, big bastard shots. The MCaL - thin, nuanced, with layers of flavour. Really, really fruity. And just... bringing everything out in waves. And over the last month or so, I've been using 'em both, pretty much alternately (I tend to go in waves). They're fucking beautiful devices, and produce incredible shots.

At the same time, for a month or two before that it was filter all the way - and, again, getting some absolutely incredible cups. Particularly from this.

Also, IMO, espresso is f***ing unbeatable as the base for drinks. If I'm drinking black coffee, espresso (/ americano) / filter are just two very different, very good ways of getting a very good cup. If I'm drinking coffee through milk, yeah, filter's ok. But it can't really touch the sides - or nature - of e.g. a macchiato. Just a tiny, tiny blob of microfoamed milk can bring a cup alive. Or turn it into something very different. There's no really easy way of doing the same with filter coffee. It's, like, got milk in, or it hasn't.

I use a cafetiere almost all the time at home, it makes very good coffee. I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong but I think it's generally considered one of the best methods to properly get all the flavour. That's how it is in my experience, anyway. Doing it "properly" isn't hard, you just grind to the right size, use enough coffee, heat the pot up a bit before you put the water in, and don't leave it too long.

I think pretty much every method is the best method for getting all the flavours. It just depends which ones you're after. And what kinda beans you're working with. FP has the 'advantage' of not removing a fair few oils, though. Which tend to be lost in paper filters. The Daily Mail side of that being, that apparently FP can raise your cholesterol levels (well, certain kinds of cholesterol levels) in ways you might not expect. There's papers out there. I could probably dig them up, at a push, and if I remember my password for toomuchcoffee.com. Comparing people who drank x quantity of filter each day vs people who drank x quantity of FP per day. In a relatively controlled environment.

 

[pogofish]

Getting a good cup of coffee - again - is "espresso" really "best" ?

I keep thinking of buying a hand grinder and an Aeropress, but never get around to it ...

No - The best coffee is the one made as you like it best.

Personally I don't drink espressos but my espresso maker is the lynchpin of all the coffees I do like and it beats a caffiterre hands down IMO.

Try reading up all the past threads on the various types of grinder, aeropress and other forms of coffee maker. I'm not joking/nagging this time - there is a lot of good info there, much of it from Quoad that would take ages to write out all over again.

 

[gentlegreen]

Before I invested I wanted to be sure that I would get the gutsy body in the coffee and not this smooth, clear brown liquid.

I happened to be in a posh deli in Bath once while the coffee salesman was in and was made to taste some espresso - it was better quality but similar - just one brain-jangling high-roast note.
He wasn't impressed when I told him I preferred specially_light-roasted Maragogype made in a jug with the lumps still in it.

I picked up some ready-ground Fairtrade Tanzanian last week. It said "fruity" on the label and I could taste the fruit even in that ...

Maybe I should have a cup of properly-made espresso in the shop where I buy my beans next time I'm in - but I can only really drink coffee at 8am.

 

[mrs quoad]

i) what's the shop?
ii) tbf, I'm not convinced... that if you're enjoying what you're making at the moment... that espresso being 'better' would be a good justification for going down that route. Enjoying the fun of tinkering with coffee - abso-chuffing-lutely. And being able to make different coffees - again, abso-chuffing-lutely. But if you were considering the espresso machine route, I'd suggest you were looking at £600 on a machine and £3-400 on a grinder before you're going to get particularly respectable results, and even then would need a lot of fannying around to get acquainted with its nuances / produce something drinkable.
iii) unless you're thinking of aeropress? Which'd probably work out at closer to £70 (Hario Skerton grinder + aeropress)? In which case, stop maundering and get on with it It's not exactly espresso - my understanding is that it's kinda half-espresso, half-FP. A half-way house, if you will.
iv) also, I'm going to suggest trying Square Mile beans again. IIRC, last time you bought some, you pretty much let them go stale

 

[gentlegreen]

i) what's the shop?

...

also, I'm going to suggest trying Square Mile beans again. IIRC, last time you bought some, you pretty much let them go stale

http://www.qype.co.uk/place/310284-Twoday-Coffee-Roasters-Bristol

They only keep half a dozen kinds in and they really know their stuff.

Apart from them, there's Whittards and a impressive-looking place in Bath market which suits me because it makes a decent 20 mile ride - but last time they sold me several different kinds of bland beans.

When I buy beans it's usually a Guatemala El Bosque or the nearest.

What do you recommend at Square Mile ?

( )

 

[mrs quoad]

That does sound like an excellent shop. And I'd bloody well hope their espresso machine would do their beans justice Better than Illy, at least

From Square Mile - last filter I had was their Mauritania Natural (I'll always go for natural, though, given the choice - I love the slightly... funky / fruity / off-centre / slightly chaotic finish that it often has). And it was excellent. Last 3 weeks or so I've been ordering espresso, though.

 

[Chz]

Yeah, I'd also say that espresso and filter are just two entirely different drinks; both good in their own right.

I've always preferred the taste of a drip filter to a cafetiere, but it's kinda hard to beat the convenience of the press. Drip filter isn't terribly good or practical for single cups. I just end up drinking espresso at home most of the time because it's the easiest thing for me to make.

 

[gentlegreen]

I made such a pig's ear of the Mauritania Natural last weekend I bit the bullet and ordered the much revered combo :-



I bought them from "Cream Supplies" - who made me sign age and health and safety disclaimers and anonymised both my order and the parcel.

 

[nick h.]

I need to establish a baseline for the best possible espresso - where should I go in London? I want something sweet with a good crema. My current baseline is an alleged Blue Mountain at a Caribbean restaurant in Brixton. I say 'alleged' because coffee geeks always insist it can't have been real blue mountain. But perhaps it was - maybe one of the staff got it on a visit home. Every time I've been back since it's not been on the menu. It blew my socks off. I think it's the only time in my life I've ordered seconds of espresso. Normally I find it too bitter and have something with milk in it.

 

[mrs quoad]

I need to establish a baseline for the best possible espresso - where should I go in London? I want something sweet with a good crema. My current baseline is an alleged Blue Mountain at a Caribbean restaurant in Brixton. I say 'alleged' because coffee geeks always insist it can't have been real blue mountain. But perhaps it was - maybe one of the staff got it on a visit home. Every time I've been back since it's not been on the menu. It blew my socks off. I think it's the only time in my life I've ordered seconds of espresso. Normally I find it too bitter and have something with milk in it.

My understanding of Blue Mountain is that it's kinda recommended for a light roast - meaning that espresso would be a strange choice of extraction. If it was light roast, it'd stand a very good chance of pulling towards the (perhaps undrinkably) sour. If it wasn't light roast, then it'd go against the grain of most of the geekery I've seen. That said, it looks like 'espresso grind' blue mountain is available online... And blue mountain is definitely available (if expensive, and often poor quality) in the UK. So you never know!

Monmouth coffee were really good, last time I tried them (in London, think they've got about 3 shops). Largely filter-focused, but also sell espresso.

Also, I'd be tempted to try anywhere here: http://www.squaremileblog.com/where-to-drink-our-coffee/

If they're buying from square mile, that's a really promising start.

 

[mrs quoad]

I made such a pig's ear of the Mauritania Natural last weekend I bit the bullet and ordered the much revered combo :-

View attachment 13827

I bought them from "Cream Supplies" - who made me sign age and health and safety disclaimers and anonymised both my order and the parcel.

Oh, GG What went wrong? With the Mauritania?

Nicely done on your new toy, mind How's it going?



e2a: I would just like to add, I've just had three of the most spectacular breakfast macchiatos I've had in a good couple of weeks Have persistently been grinding a bit too tight, grr, and forgetting to adjust because I've been using an FP in between. And've been ending up with bitter cups. This morning -> total, unmitigated win

 

[gentlegreen]

Oh, GG What went wrong? With the Mauritania?

Nicely done on your new toy, mind How's it going?

I couldn't get the right grind. The first time all the flavour erupted out of my cafetière with the fine stuff and I was left with just the coarse stuff and watery coffee.
It's lively stuff that Mauritania I almost managed subsequently by making smaller amounts at a time.

I only drink coffee on Saturday and Sunday - can't cope with it when I'm at work.
I seem to be quite tolerant of caffeine when I'm at home - blood pressure 127/88 shortly after an industrial mug's worth.

So Saturday around 8.30 I will post a report.

Meanwhile I'm reading up on the inverted method and alternative filters.

 

[kalidarkone]

http://www.qype.co.uk/place/310284-Twoday-Coffee-Roasters-Bristol

They only keep half a dozen kinds in and they really know their stuff.



( )

As soon as my haemoglobin levels are normal I'm off here for a cup of coffee. I have been dreaming about this for months after having no coffee for months

 

[mrs quoad]

I couldn't get the right grind. The first time all the flavour erupted out of my cafetière with the fine stuff and I was left with just the coarse stuff and watery coffee.
It's lively stuff that Mauritania I almost managed subsequently by making smaller amounts at a time.

You mean froth? Bubbles? When you poured in the water?

That's the equivalent of crema. In an espresso. It's an indication that the beans are fresh. Rather than stale / flat / old. Stir with a plastic stirrer / stick / chopstick as you're pouring in the boiling water. And / or take breaks in the water pouring, stir to flatten the bubbles, then resume.

Also, fwiw, I'd... be surprised... if you needed too much to make a respectable cup. Whilst doing some renovation / painting work up North I forgot my filter cone and ended up buying an FP from sainsbury's. They had an 8 cup at half price (£4?) so that's what I got. Think I was using 20-22g in approx. 4-6 cupsworth of water. And it was producing a very respectably nuanced / flavoured cup.

e2a: and if the 'flavour' is going with the fine grinds, then... what kinda grinder are you using? That's sounding like it's producing some pretty uneven grinds... I've been using pretty much rock-sized grinds, long (well, 2.5-3.5 minute) extraction time. The flavour - in an FP, at least - kinda shouldn't really be disappearing with the fine grinds. They're just there as an inconvenient and unavoidable bitterness-inducing sediment. If you're using a half-way consistent grinder...?

 

[mrs quoad]

btw, for 'rock-sized' I mean - comfortably - little chips of coffee that are noticeably coarser than conventional 'grinds'. A bit hard to explain. But coarser than builder's sand.

Ooo, something a bit like this (maybe even a bit coarser):

Also, same site provides a good image re: why burr grinders are better than blades.

Blade grinder:

 

[gentlegreen]

My old grinder is a nightmare. A Moulinex whizzer I bought in an Oxfam shop in the mid 80s.
It vibrates so much I have to hold onto it to stop the beans ending up all over the kitchen - which means I don't have any fingers left to stick in my ears.

Coffee-making will now be Zen-like.
I put a new battery in my timer, I've ordered a new digital scale, and I'm looking for a cheap cooking thermometer with a large display - though it may be time to rig up a kettle with a thermostat.

 

[gentlegreen]

As soon as my haemoglobin levels are normal I'm off here for a cup of coffee. I have been dreaming about this for months after having no coffee for months

Did you avail yourself of that place while you were doing your training ?

Or was that up on the Downs (I was born there).

 

[kalidarkone]

Did you avail yourself of that place while you were doing your training ?

Or was that up on the Downs (I was born there).

No never been in there before-just looked in the window and after reading many of the coffee threads here I decided the best place for coffee would probably be this place.

You were born on the Downs ?

 

[gentlegreen]

No never been in there before-just looked in the window and after reading many of the coffee threads here I decided the best place for coffee would probably be this place.

You were born on the Downs ?

Bristol maternity hospital.

Is it still there ?

 

[mrs quoad]

My old grinder is a nightmare. A Moulinex whizzer I bought in an Oxfam shop in the mid 80s.
It vibrates so much I have to hold onto it to stop the beans ending up all over the kitchen - which means I don't have any fingers left to stick in my ears.

Coffee-making will now be Zen-like.
I put a new battery in my timer, I've ordered a new digital scale, and I'm looking for a cheap cooking thermometer with a large display - though it may be time to rig up a kettle with a thermostat.

And yet, going by the sounds of it, what's actually going wrong with your coffee could probably be fixed just by replacing the grinder. Which... you're not replacing?

Not being funny, but no matter what your extraction method, whether aeropress, FP, filter, espresso, whatever - if you're using a borked and unreliable grinder, all you're likely to get is marginally different upfucked brews... No matter how perfect the water temperature, bean weight, etc, etc.

e2a: oh, hang on! That's a porlex next to the aeropress, isn't it?

My bad

 

[kalidarkone]

Bristol maternity hospital.

Is it still there ?

St Michaels- yes it is and yes that is where I will go back to train.

 

[Idaho]

I've been getting coffee from this place recently, specifically this CO2 decaf. It's flipping nice:

Brazil Camocim CO2 Decaf


I've got a cheapish electric burr grinder which does an ok job. And I use an ordinary caffetiere. Getting beans I like, and a process I can afford that makes coffee nicer than I can buy is good enough for me. I keep trying coffee in cafes and most of the time it's just not strong enough.

 

[fredfelt]

miss quaod. On another thread before Christmas you were extolling the virtues of buying beans and grinding them when needed. Anyway I took your advice and had a chat with Father Christmas about this. I ended up with a 'Delonghi KG79 Professional Burr Grinder'.

I like allot. The machine is fab - use a dial to select the required amount and size of grind. Press a button and a couple of seconds later you have a portion of ground coffee ready. It gets daily use.

The coffee comes from a fab independent shop in a near by town. The seem to be a little bit mad which adds to the enjoyment of the coffee!

Anyway - thanks for the advice.

 

[gentlegreen]

e2a: oh, hang on! That's a porlex next to the aeropress, isn't it?

My bad

Oh yes - though I suspect I will eventually end up making a frame and attaching a battery drill and wrecking it

 

[mrs quoad]

Delighted to've been of use, Phil. In that price range, I probably would've been inclined to recommend a manual burr grinder; but if it's doing what you wanted to do, and is producing good coffee, that's fantastic

Oh yes - though I suspect I will eventually end up making a frame and attaching a battery drill and wrecking it

Don't you fucking dare.

If you're grinding for FP, it shouldn't take more than a minute.

If you're grinding super-tight, it still shouldn't take much over a minute.

Fully apprecaited the ceramic burrs are tough; but they're not a 100% perfect fit (any doubt about that, have a look at the bottom and the wobble that's still remaining). And writing off / risking damaging a £40 grinder just doesn't - IMO - make any flavour of sense, for the benefit of 30 seconds' laziness.

 

[gentlegreen]

Just made my first coffee with the new kit.

2 scoops fine grind, water off boil, fairly full, good stir and not much hanging around before pushing it through, topped up mug with a bit more water.
I may not motorise the grinder, but there's scope for making up a wall mounted bracket for the Aeropress.

The result is very smooth and balanced.

If I didn't have the lurgy, I would cycle up to the posh end of town for some Guatemala - since the Finca Mauritania is an unknown quantity for me - more fruity, less chocolatey. Trust me to choose this weekend for my tastebuds to go on the Fritz....

I can see it'll take a while to dial-in the right parameters - but at least for the first time ever I am actually doing things with a degree of repeatability.