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German Politics (was Germany: Elections 2017)

Did I say I had spoken to a majority or Germans?

You said "most people in Germany think of…". That implies a majority and I just wanted to ask, how you'd come to think you know what the majority thinks.

By the sounds of things you're a Green Party supporter/voter and keen to defend them from criticisms

No, you're wrong. I've regularly expressed my unhappiness with the Green party on Social Media in the past. I just don't like unjust criticism.

Given his role in the debt crisis I think it's safe to say that Varoufakis has forgotten more about Schäuble than you or I will ever know.

And that's exactly why I'm wondering why he obviously "forgot" about Schäuble's party and framed austerity as "socialdemocrat-green". Can't really think that happened by accident and not on purpose.

And you have brought up Wagenknecht on several occasions now - what evidence have you of Varoufakis supporting SW or of a dalliance between Diem25/Mera and the BSW?
That's just the impression I have, because I can't think of another plausible reason why he's jumping onto the anti-green bandwagon. Diem/Mera25 is clearly a dead horse, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to have a look for other alliances.
 
Exit polls have the AfD winning in Thuringia & contesting for highest % in Saxony:

A far-right party became the biggest force in a German state parliament for the first time since the second world war, exit polls showed on Sunday, while a new populist force on the left established a firm foothold in the country’s political landscape.

Voters in two closely watched elections in the former communist east made their dissatisfaction with Germany’s mainstream political parties clear, putting the Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) party in the top spot in Thuringia, with between 31.2 and 33.2% of the vote, and second place in Saxony, with 30.6%-31.4%, according to preliminary results.


Alice Weidel, the AfD’s co-leader, said: “It is a historic success for us. It is the first time we have become the strongest force in a state election. It is a requiem for this coalition [in Berlin].”
 
Of course, like most of the former East, Thuringia and Saxony both have amongst the lowest levels of immigration in Germany:

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They won't be in government as nobody else will work with them, but the biggest vote for the far right since Hitler. Worrying.

Yes, many parts of former East Germany have been left behind economically. The German equivalent of parts of Northern England. The people who live there have every sympathy from me for that.

But to look at AfD and think 'yep, they're my people'?I know this isn't very constructive, but I feel the same way about people turning towards fascism anywhere. Fuck You.

Depressing as fuck. It was the one thing Primo Levi could never really get his head around. How people end up supporting this stuff. Stupid fucking humans. :(
 
The dynamic of places with very little recent history of migration (particularly from PoC) being particularly against migration (particularly PoC) is an interesting one... Just maybe it's the lack of migration that's a big part of the problem?

Of course those first generations of (PoC) migrants had to put up with an unimaginable amount of shit, as did for example the windrush and equivalent generations from other parts of the world .... We all owe them a debt of gratitude for the pain they went through in breaking down those barriers.
 
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If a place is, for want of a better word, a shithole*, very few people are likely to immigrate there. Why would they? Meanwhile, young people tend to want to get out of such places as quickly as they can. Why wouldn't they?

But yes, those that do migrate are very visible, like refugees in the UK who are dumped in shitholes are very visible. Easy targets. Why should they have things when we don't have anything, etc? It's massively depressing that hostility turns that way.

So yeah, moar migration! Why the hell shouldn't we say that loudly and clearly?

*Not meant as a judgement of the people there, in case that wasn't clear.
 
Saw a short documentary about black Africans in modern Moscow....one of the most depressing things I've ever watched. Hiding in shadows.

I don't believe it was the same in the soviet era... Might be wrong, but the spirit of international fellowship was part of the propaganda message on those times
 
Saw a short documentary about black Africans in modern Moscow....one of the most depressing things I've ever watched. Hiding in shadows.

I don't believe it was the same in the soviet era... Might be wrong, but the spirit of international fellowship was part of the propaganda message on those times
As far as I could ever tell, as a frequent visitor in the very late Soviet period, mainly to Moscow (apologies to our esteemed poster Tim, whom this seems to annoy for some reason), it wasn't anywhere near as bad. Moscow was still a very safe place for everybody, and I felt much more secure wandering about in the early hours, or at any other time of day, than I did in my native Manchester. If I hadn't been white and easily able to blend in I'm not sure however.

Sure enough, the official line was that all peoples are equally deserving of respect, but I do have some uncomfortable memories. For instance, I met several people on the trains from Ostend to Moscow from Africa and the Caribbean who were studying or working in Moscow. On one occasion me and some Ukrainians I'd got talking to (Russian speakers like most Ukrainians) from Lvov were drinking together in a compartment, and when this young Jamaican on his way back to Moscow for the new academic year I'd earlier got talking to passed by they invited him in and happily tried to make conversation with him, showing friendly interest in what took him to Moscow, as well as life in his homeland etc etc. A few years later I visited these people in Lvov (by then Lviv...), and they told me that they were so incensed by his having a Russian girlfriend (with whom he'd had a child) that they'd have kicked his teeth in given the opportunity. They were not 'political' in any way I could tell, just ordinary lads with wives and kids.

Shortly after the 1991 attempted coup I also met an African male, travelling to London, where he was planning to settle if possible as he quite wisely surmised that the end of the USSR was going to see an upsurge in overt racism. He'd been in the USSR since 1980 and had settled in Moldova, had an ethnic Ukrainian wife and several kids, but the marriage had ended along with his employment. He did somehow manage to settle in the UK (precariously it seemed), and when he came up to see me about a year later it was while my girlfriend (loosely termed as you can't really have a stable relationship with somebody at the far end of the continent) from Moscow was over on her first visit. He had reason to make a trip to Moldova some time in the near future, and as he'd have to go via Moscow was sounding us out about places to stay. I noticed how uncomfortable she was about the idea that she put him up, and later she said to me something along the lines of 'What do you think my neighbours would say if a black man turned up at my door?' She was your typical chattering class Moscow 'liberal.'

While renewing my visa one time, at an office on Moscow's Rochdale Street, named in honour of the town where the co-operative movement was formed, I found my Russian to be inadequate to filling in the complicated form and so approached some Africans as the most likely people to speak English in the chaotic, crowded office, to compare notes. I didn't get the impression that they were being treated particularly well by the impatient, harrassed officials, but neither was I.

In 1988, on my first trip to Russia, I went via Poland, and having lost my way wandering about in Warsaw I approached an African, again as the most likely English speaker. He was studying there and had been in the USSR. When I told him I was on my way to the SU he said 'It will be a strange experience but you will meet some really nice people...'

So all in all a mixed picture.
 
As far as I could ever tell, as a frequent visitor in the very late Soviet period, mainly to Moscow (apologies to our esteemed poster Tim, whom this seems to annoy for some reason), it wasn't anywhere near as bad. Moscow was still a very safe place for everybody, and I felt much more secure wandering about in the early hours, or at any other time of day, than I did in my native Manchester. If I hadn't been white and easily able to blend in I'm not sure however.

Sure enough, the official line was that all peoples are equally deserving of respect, but I do have some uncomfortable memories. For instance, I met several people on the trains from Ostend to Moscow from Africa and the Caribbean who were studying or working in Moscow. On one occasion me and some Ukrainians I'd got talking to (Russian speakers like most Ukrainians) from Lvov were drinking together in a compartment, and when this young Jamaican on his way back to Moscow for the new academic year I'd earlier got talking to passed by they invited him in and happily tried to make conversation with him, showing friendly interest in what took him to Moscow, as well as life in his homeland etc etc. A few years later I visited these people in Lvov (by then Lviv...), and they told me that they were so incensed by his having a Russian girlfriend (with whom he'd had a child) that they'd have kicked his teeth in given the opportunity. They were not 'political' in any way I could tell, just ordinary lads with wives and kids.

Shortly after the 1991 attempted coup I also met an African male, travelling to London, where he was planning to settle if possible as he quite wisely surmised that the end of the USSR was going to see an upsurge in overt racism. He'd been in the USSR since 1980 and had settled in Moldova, had an ethnic Ukrainian wife and several kids, but the marriage had ended along with his employment. He did somehow manage to settle in the UK (precariously it seemed), and when he came up to see me about a year later it was while my girlfriend (loosely termed as you can't really have a stable relationship with somebody at the far end of the continent) from Moscow was over on her first visit. He had reason to make a trip to Moldova some time in the near future, and as he'd have to go via Moscow was sounding us out about places to stay. I noticed how uncomfortable she was about the idea that she put him up, and later she said to me something along the lines of 'What do you think my neighbours would say if a black man turned up at my door?' She was your typical chattering class Moscow 'liberal.'

While renewing my visa one time, at an office on Moscow's Rochdale Street, named in honour of the town where the co-operative movement was formed, I found my Russian to be inadequate to filling in the complicated form and so approached some Africans as the most likely people to speak English in the chaotic, crowded office, to compare notes. I didn't get the impression that they were being treated particularly well by the impatient, harrassed officials, but neither was I.

In 1988, on my first trip to Russia, I went via Poland, and having lost my way wandering about in Warsaw I approached an African, again as the most likely English speaker. He was studying there and had been in the USSR. When I told him I was on my way to the SU he said 'It will be a strange experience but you will meet some really nice people...'

So all in all a mixed picture.
Speaking of chattering class liberals . . . . when I was flat hunting in St. Petersburg I met a couple of liberal westernisers: I told them I'd been to Africa and they said "how can you go to Africa, they're all cannibals".

The guy from the local African expat social club told me that one issue is that ordinary Russians often assume that African students still get subbed to study in Russia, just like in Soviet times - not true. He also told me - this was 2006 - that the policy a lot of his community adopted was to wear a suit and tie and carry a briefcase. That way the cops and civilians alike would think hey maybe that guy's a diplomat or business man, someone with connections it might not be wise to cross. . .

I don't know if that still works.
 
So, what about the BSW? They're third in both states. I only know what I've read today online. They seem to be the kingmaker in both states. Will they work with the AfD? They don't seem the most natural coalition partners for the CDU.


Dodgy sounding bunch of fuckers who wouldn't approve of all the Lifestyle Leftists here.
 
Speaking of chattering class liberals . . . . when I was flat hunting in St. Petersburg I met a couple of liberal westernisers: I told them I'd been to Africa and they said "how can you go to Africa, they're all cannibals".

The guy from the local African expat social club told me that one issue is that ordinary Russians often assume that African students still get subbed to study in Russia, just like in Soviet times - not true. He also told me - this was 2006 - that the policy a lot of his community adopted was to wear a suit and tie and carry a briefcase. That way the cops and civilians alike would think hey maybe that guy's a diplomat or business man, someone with connections it might not be wise to cross. . .

I don't know if that still works.
At the risk of further derailing a thread about Germany... Another memory, from 1997 when I went back to Russia for a relatively short visit... Another Moscow liberal, completely supportive of the changes and Yeltsin, whose job involved travelling all over the former SU, told us that the saddest thing about the recent period was that she now faced hostilty from many people whenever she went outside Russia, which was almost completely absent previously.

As early as 1990 another Moscow acquaintance who'd been in Belgium bought a car there, which had, for some reason, to be delivered via Estonia. The hostility he faced as a Russian from Estonian customs when he travelled there to collect it took him completely by surprise. It was a particularly acute period of political tension, but he'd never experienced anything like it before. He was, as an ordinary Soviet citizen, treated like he was responsible for decisions taken in the Kremlin, and also, disturbingly as it had never previously happened to him in his 25 years of life, recognised and insulted as Jewish.

I do sometimes wonder how many of these Moscow liberals of that generation went over to Putin.
 
Despite Die Linke's vote collapsing in Thurlinga, they got 12.5% compared to 31% in 2019, they managed to win in a seat Leipzig , Saxony . The candidate from a Vietnam heritage won nearly 40% . Pretty simple formula .

1725229763531.png
 
So, what about the BSW? They're third in both states. I only know what I've read today online. They seem to be the kingmaker in both states. Will they work with the AfD? They don't seem the most natural coalition partners for the CDU.


Dodgy sounding bunch of fuckers who wouldn't approve of all the Lifestyle Leftists here.
Might be of help?

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Bavarian State Govt anti radicalisation video ( specifically anti Salafi ). Bavaria is run by the CSU not to be confused with the CDU



Edit : now been withdrawn by the Bavarian Govt

try this
 
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Heard that Thuringia is also where Nazis won their first seat

Personally, I think there may have been a case after 1945 to abolish Germany and divide it up. Two World Wars and a Holocaust and as soon as they were allowed to have elections in 1949 they started to reverse the denazification and their reconstruction was financed by the victorious Allies Then they were allowed to reunify with the former GDR and have a military.
 
Good piece in the Guardian, surprisingly (for the Guardian) taking as its starting point the need to tackle the symptoms that give rise to the AfD rather than the AfD or those who, in desperation at the failure of elite liberalism to address their basic concerns, vote for them.

 
Good piece in the Guardian, surprisingly (for the Guardian) taking as its starting point the need to tackle the symptoms that give rise to the AfD rather than the AfD or those who, in desperation at the failure of elite liberalism to address their basic concerns, vote for them.

but their "main concern" is immigration and AfD do particularly well in areas that have little immigration now or historically, so how do you "address these concerns"?
In second place is the Ukraine Russia war
 
but their "main concern" is immigration and AfD do particularly well in areas that have little immigration now or historically, so how do you "address these concerns"?
In second place is the Ukraine Russia war

The article directly discusses that very point..

“Ask Germans what their main concerns are. Immigration tops the list, followed by energy prices, war and the economy. The word I heard over and over again in recent months was angst. Given that a growing number of immigrants are being charged with violent crimes, which are onthe rise, many feel this is an issue of safety. But this is not just about immigration: people cite a deeper fear for the economic and political future of the country, amplified in the east but prevalent across Germany and the west.

These are uncomfortable topics to discuss, especially for left-leaning parties, but discussing them is exactly what they must do instead of handing a monopoly over those issues to the AfD. That is not the same as plunging into populism”
 
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