Gender idealism?

[Yugoslav]

Have been delving into this Marxist theory for quite a time. Based on what I was able to understand of dialectical materialism, ideas are caused by chemical reactions and we need to meet material criteria in order to fulfill such.

This then leads to the question. Is the current thinking of transgender rights activism idealist? Because more people seem to be advocating for social transition which seems to be contradictory to dialectical materialism.

 

[NoXion]

I'd say that the lived experiences of trans people are very much a material phenomenon, and not some abstract idealisation.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Hello new poster, what attracted you to the excitements of Urban75?

 

[Yugoslav]

I'd say that the lived experiences of trans people are very much a material phenomenon, and not some abstract idealisation.

This is a rather empirical viewpoint.

There is this one example of the apple from Politzer's book.

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

 

[Yugoslav]

Hello new poster, what attracted you to the excitements of Urban75?

Was looking for other political forums then came to this one which accepted me with an easy registration without any complex admin approval.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

Well no because not all trans people medically transition.

 

[TopCat]

This is a rather empirical viewpoint.

There is this one example of the apple from Politzer's book.

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

If I were you I wouldn’t bring this analogy into any conversation with a trans person.

 

[kalidarkone]

Well no because not all trans people medically transition.

It?

 

[Fozzie Bear]

Also this is a very binary way of looking at gender and transitioning. Perhaps Asger Jorn's ideas about triolectics are more useful here and can accomodate yer non-binaries and intersexes.

 

[Yugoslav]

If I were you I wouldn’t bring this analogy into any conversation with a trans person.

Sadly most wouldn't really get this without some explaining to be done. However, it seems that dialectical materialism based on this part of the analogy and not an economic one, would deem social transitioning as idealist.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I knew I shouldn't have brought up Hegel yesterday.

 

[NoXion]

This is a rather empirical viewpoint.

What's wrong with empiricism? We should deal with the world as we find it, rather than as we might wish it do be.

There is this one example of the apple from Politzer's book.

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

Who is Politzer, and what relevance does their work have to the science of how people form their gender identities?

 

[Yugoslav]

What's wrong with empiricism? We should deal with the world as we find it, rather than as we might wish it do be.



Who is Politzer, and what relevance does their work have to the science of how people form their gender identities?

Nothing wrong with that. Also Politzer has this relevance due to the apple analogy he provides.

 

[NoXion]

Nothing wrong with that. Also Politzer has this relevance due to the apple analogy he provides.

Analogies are imprecise by necessity. I think on subjects like gender identity they are best avoided, to prevent ambiguity from clouding the discussion.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

An apple seed generally has the potential to become an apple. Not all apple seeds become apples though. So there are continuities and discontinuities. Perhaps some apple seeds become food for animals. Or are squished on the pavement. Or are part of a wonderful natural/genetic process to create a new breed of apple.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

Have been delving into this Marxist theory for quite a time. Based on what I was able to understand of dialectical materialism, ideas are caused by chemical reactions and we need to meet material criteria in order to fulfill such.

This then leads to the question. Is the current thinking of transgender rights activism idealist? Because more people seem to be advocating for social transition which seems to be contradictory to dialectical materialism.

Isn't this a fucking contradiction? Jeez, very poor. Very poor indeed.

 

[Jennaonthebeach]

This is a rather empirical viewpoint.

There is this one example of the apple from Politzer's book.

"Before that it was a green apple; before being a flower, it was a bud. In this way, we shall go back to the condition of the apple tree in spring. The apple has not always been an apple: it has a history. Likewise, it will not remain what it is. If it falls, it will rot, decompose and scatter its seeds, which will, if all goes well, produce a shoot and then a tree. Hence, neither has the apple always been what it is nor will it remain what it is."

If I were to translate this into the view of trans people, the following would be that a trans woman is defined as a human who at first was born a man and then through medical transitioning, became a woman because it was not always a "woman".

Speaking as an "it". Fuck right off.

 

[PTK]

Have been delving into this Marxist theory for quite a time. Based on what I was able to understand of dialectical materialism, ideas are caused by chemical reactions and we need to meet material criteria in order to fulfill such.

This then leads to the question. Is the current thinking of transgender rights activism idealist? Because more people seem to be advocating for social transition which seems to be contradictory to dialectical materialism.

"ideas are caused by chemical reactions"
Are they? They do not arise from material conditions?

 

[A380]

This will end well.

 

[Yugoslav]

"ideas are caused by chemical reactions"
Are they? They do not arise from material conditions?

"To the question of where do our ideas come from? Dialectical materialists reply: from the brain, as the result of a chemical interaction. But moreover from our material conditions; the reality in which we live."

I'd say both then.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Have been delving into this Marxist theory for quite a time. Based on what I was able to understand of dialectical materialism, ideas are caused by chemical reactions and we need to meet material criteria in order to fulfill such.

This then leads to the question. Is the current thinking of transgender rights activism idealist? Because more people seem to be advocating for social transition which seems to be contradictory to dialectical materialism.

The lived Experience of trans people is material

as are the subject and objective postive benefits of Gender Affirming Hormone Treatment and Gender Affirming Surgeries and the extensive , robust, clinicla evidence base that supports them

if you want to play the ' transgenderism is a bourgeois distraction from class struggle' line Frank Furedi and Spiked! is over there in the dumpster with the rest of the trash

 

[Santino]

To say that an idea is caused by a chemical reaction suggests that ideas are things that bear a relation to physical objects but are somehow distinct from them.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Analogies are imprecise by necessity. I think on subjects like gender identity they are best avoided, to prevent ambiguity from clouding the discussion.

and especially as many analogies are started / solely used by cisgender people to try and comfortably explain away something which they have not and will not ever experience. ( e.g. all the 'born in the wrong body' guff - doubly so when you have any understanding of the developlment of the fetus and the mutability of secondary sexual characteristics)

 

[Yugoslav]

Isn't this a fucking contradiction? Jeez, very poor. Very poor indeed.

Hmm. What about the caterpillar-butterfly analogy then?

I would not call a caterpillar a "butterfly" until it has undergone its own metamorphosis (which humans with gender dysphoria cannot do naturally and require a medical transition). We know the difference between a butterfly and a caterpillar. A caterpillar is a worm that is about to become a butterfly and it must eat a lot. A butterfly is a winged insect that is the end result of the caterpillar.

 

[Yugoslav]

and especially as many analogies are started / solely used by cisgender people to try and comfortably explain away something which they have not and will not ever experience. ( e.g. all the 'born in the wrong body' guff - doubly so when you have any understanding of the developlment of the fetus and the mutability of secondary sexual characteristics)

Well, I do have experience of having a biological male body. My chemical reaction of gender dysphoria never really occurred in my life. Not everyone is bound to this, hence we believe that it is most likely some form of chemical interaction caused by a set of material conditions within the brain that result in the "transgender idea", hence the need to "transition".

 

[InArduisFouette]

Well, I do have experience of having a biological male body. My chemical reaction of gender dysphoria never really occurred in my life. Not everyone is bound to this, hence we believe that it is most likely some form of chemical interaction caused by a set of material conditions within the brain that result in the "transgender idea", hence the need to "transition".

you freely admit you have not and will not experience Gender Incongruence and the associated dysphoria , yet you feel that your views on the topic are of significant importance ...

 

[Puddy_Tat]

at OP and thread

 

[Yugoslav]

The lived Experience of trans people is material

as are the subject and objective postive benefits of Gender Affirming Hormone Treatment and Gender Affirming Surgeries and the extensive , robust, clinicla evidence base that supports them

if you want to play the ' transgenderism is a bourgeois distraction from class struggle' line Frank Furedi and Spiked! is over there in the dumpster with the rest of the trash

Isn't the Spiked thing and the guy, once formerly a magazine called "Living Marxism" which I remember reading that it denied the Srebrenica genocide (supporting Serbian chauvinism)?

 

[Yugoslav]

you freely admit you have not and will not experience Gender Incongrueance and the assocaited dysphoria , yet you fell that your views o nthe topic are of significant importance ...

Is my viewpoint not welcome? I thought we had the freedom of conscience to be expressed. Well, I can talk about it with a trans person but most of the time, it won't go well. A minority of trans people would actually agree with what I would say while the rest would see it as "transmedicalism" which violates their "idealism".