Yes sorry I realised that after posting, my mistake, hence deleting.
Gaza under attack yet again.
- Thread starter Mr.Bishie
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MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
You are actually correct, strictly speaking your opinion as to whose claim to Sheikh Jarrah is the more valid is just as sound as that of the Israeli Govt, they are after all just that opinions except that the Israeli Govt can back its opinion up with tanks and planes which kind of gives them a major advantage.
As to whether or not Israeli has the right to exist, no nation including ours has the right to exist but Israel clearly does and has proven itself capable of defending it.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Is this sort of bullshit something that's always happened, or is this demand that "Bella, Gigi and Dua" need to take stances on this and that issue a particularly contemporary form of brainrot?
Fwiw, I'd say that Zionism is also much more a product of 19th/20th century secular nationalist ideologies than it is of the Jewish religion.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
If you have to kill people to give your opinion validity it's a shit opinion
But even if it had, 73 years is really not that long. There are Palestinian people alive now who were there then.
And yes their kids and grandkids should have the right to return imo.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I assume the first image refers to British mandate Palestine (hence Jordan being next door).
how did the Palestinians have control of the land in that period? And given that some (albeit not much) of the land was even then owned by Jews of the new yishuv, it wasn’t ‘100% of the land’ under Palestinian ownership (let alone under political control)
No, it was a colony. Hence being called "British Mandate". They may not have had control but they lived there, on that land. And yes some Jewish people (amongst others) lived there too.
Not sure what your point is, sorry?
ska invita
back on the other side
i think the narrative of trigger moments can be overstated
seems to me above all it was trigged by Netanyahu clinging to power
True.
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
Wouldn't argue with you.
Yep and will continue to do so, History is littered with countless examples of ethnic groups driven out by others, that's exactly what we are remember, we're descended from the Saxons who drove out the Picts who drove out the Britons.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
given that ‘Judaism’ was established in Israel/Palestine/whatever by a bunch of returning exiles (from Babylon/Persia), and given the central motif of exile and return in Judaism, I don’t think Zionism - even in its secular form - can really be detached from Judaism.
i remember reading about Ezra and Nehemiah In cheder and thinking they were a pair of cunts
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
No, it was a colony. Hence being called "British Mandate". They may not have had control but they lived there, on that land. And yes some Jewish people (amongst others) lived there too.
its just one of those images one sees a lot of wrt to Israel/Palestine which isn’t accurate and therefore unhelpful
its just one of those images one sees a lot of wrt to Israel/Palestine which isn’t accurate and therefore unhelpful
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Speak for yourself
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I thought the theory that the Saxons drove out the Celtic peoples was debunked?
MickiQ
In My Defence I was left Unsupervised
I don't think it likely that Netanyahu deliberately schemed to start anything but the man is an opportunistic cunt who would have seized the chance to present himself in a favourable light.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Turkey as the descendant of the former colonial should step in. Or maybe Italy who are descended from the former former colonial power
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Never mind all this bollocks about 'right to return', I'm sure many Gazans would be quite happy with a right to go pretty much anywhere.
ska invita
back on the other side
no i dont want to suggest conspiracy but his whole approach is to antagonise and escalate, this is the inevitable result
PTK
Paul Kegan
1. The descendents of refugees displaced by conflicts are recognised in international law as refugees. This applies to Palestinians, Cypriots, and Somalis, to name but three groups.
2. The Nakba in a sense continues, as Palestinians in Jerualem and the West Bank are still being displaced from their homes.
3. The return of displaced Palestinian refugees need not, and should not, lead to the displacement of Israeli Jews.
4. The fairest solution, I would argue, would be the creation of a single, democratic, secular state that recognised the national rights of both Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs, but would not exclude those who do not identify with either nation.
PTK
Paul Kegan
This is misleading, in that it does not mention that the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian rule between 1948 and 1967, and the West Bank was ruled by Transjordan (the government of which changed its name to Jordan to reflect the fact that its territory encompassed both banks of the River Jordan).
Kevbad the Bad
Amiable Bowel Syndrome
Human Rights Watch on the Palestinian right of return:
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
This is bizarre
It’s like a Scientology event (look we are not really American). But worse
It’s like a Scientology event (look we are not really American). But worse
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
During the mandate some land was sold to Jewish people by Palestinian land owners. This did not always go down well with local population. In some cases local tenant farmers were evicted to be replaced by Jewish migrants. It was one of the tension points between local people and some of the Jewish people who came to Palestine in the Mandate period.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
yeah i appreciate that. I just don’t think it’s helpful to make claims that aren’t true. Palestinians (ie the people who lived there and hadn’t appeared recently as part of the new yishuv) didn’t own 100% of the land (nor did they have self determination).
statements that aren’t accurate are very swiftly used by ‘the zionists’ to ‘prove’ how dreadfully antisemitic Palestinian solidarity is, so why give them the ammo?
And anyway, the state of Israel now uses the ‘Jews were kicked out of Arab countries why can’t they just accept a population swap’ line, so I don’t see how ‘the land all belonged to the Palestinians’ (which it didn’t, in any sense) argument helps the Palestinian cause. And that’s even before the Zionists start brining up the Hebron massacre (1929 version).
I’m also not sure why me pointing this out is evidence I’m some secret hasbara agent or whatever.
Gramsci
Well-Known Member
This banner at the demo last Saturday got me to look this group up. They have been around since seventies. See them selves as heirs to Jewish socialist tradition going back to the Bund.
The Jewish Bund was east European socialist group that was main rival to Zionism in pre war eastern Europe.
Largely wiped out by the Nazis. Some who survived the war ended up in this country.
From their website piece on a Polish Bund member who joined JWS.
Bringing the Bund to London | Jewish Socialists' Group
Fifteen years ago today we lost a treasured member of the Jewish Socialists’ Group who had a profound influence on the group’s outlook. His name was Majer Bogdanski. He joined the JSG in 1985, a few months after we had invited him to talk to our group. He remained a member until he died 20 years...
Bund was also about sustaining Yiddish language and culture in Eastern Europe. As the article explains.
Bund advocated "hereness" staying in place in Eastern Europe rather than the Zionist "thereness" building a new society in Israel/Palestine.
"Neo Bundism" (which takes the hereness view and applies it to present day)has been criticized as it does not take into account that original Bundism was , this argument goes, specific to Eastern Europe if its time.
I don't know much about this. But the history and debates it are interesting.
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
View attachment 270059
This banner at the demo last Saturday got me to look this group up. They have been around since seventies. See them selves as heirs to Jewish socialist tradition going back to the Bund.
The Jewish Bund was east European socialist group that was main rival to Zionism in pre war eastern Europe.
Largely wiped out by the Nazis. Some who survived the war ended up in this country.
From their website piece on a Polish Bund member who joined JWS.
Bringing the Bund to London | Jewish Socialists' Group
Fifteen years ago today we lost a treasured member of the Jewish Socialists’ Group who had a profound influence on the group’s outlook. His name was Majer Bogdanski. He joined the JSG in 1985, a few months after we had invited him to talk to our group. He remained a member until he died 20 years...www.jewishsocialist.org.uk
Bund was also about sustaining Yiddish language and culture in Eastern Europe. As the article explains.
Bund advocated "hereness" staying in place in Eastern Europe rather than the Zionist "thereness" building a new society in Israel/Palestine.
"Neo Bundism" (which takes the hereness view and applies it to present day)has been criticized as it does not take into account that original Bundism was , this argument goes, specific to Eastern Europe if its time.
I don't know much about this. But the history and debates it are interesting.
my parents were mates with people in the JSG. lovely folk. The Gerbers gave me some donald roum wildcat anthologies for my bar mitzvah. He signed it with ‘this is to teach you how to be grumpy’
Shechemite
Be the sun and all will see you
I like the ‘hereness’ element of the bund, but I’m not sure why Jews would need to organise as jews in the contemporary world? Maybe parts of Africa and the Middle East but in 21st century Britain what stops Jews just organising with people local to them (Jewish or otherwise)? The only structural barrier to Jews organising outside of ‘Jewish community’ here is the depressing presence of antisemtism within (relatively) powerful left wing organisations? I don’t think Jews need our own Labour organisations.
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