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Gaza under attack yet again.

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laptop said:
"Breathing is a form of resistance."



For those not exposed to Palestinians discussing their situation: I'm expecting that the perceived victory lies simply in Gaza continuing to exist - without Israeli troops on the streets, even.
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You're probably right that that is mainly what is meant. I doubt its possible to even guess at how someone who hasn't experienced the occupation themselves would feel in that situation. I just wonder how many people can really mean it when they must know the Israeli's will keep coming back, and they remain in what is effectively an open air prison.
 
SpackleFrog said:
This is just batshit. Every time I make a remark about Hamas I'm "questioning their legitimacy"?
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What else is it when every remark you make is conflictual?

Now you are openly arguing that criticism of Hamas equals an attempt to deny the election results. And WHEN have I asserted Fatah or the PA's "fitness for the job"? I guarantee you I have never in my life said such a thing. Again, you're reading other peoples arguments into what I'm saying.



Thank you. In what language?
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Martian.


I have my own political viewpoint certainly; I don't feel I've been met with a lot of argument but if you think there are points I should have listened too but haven't then please let me know.

Since we're doing personal assessments, here's what I think about your own views. I think you've got so used to defending Hamas against accusations of illegitimacy or liberals moaning about how they use violent means etc that now you just defend them out habit, regardless of whether you should or not. And that on the basis of that perspective, whether consciously or unconsciously, you now appear to be arguing that what is right for Gazan's is to continue to support Hamas and their ineffectual methods of resistance and to wait for the inevitable genocide while lobbing the odd rocket hopelessly over the border.
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No, I'm arguing that the Gazan people elected HAMAS with their eyes open, knowing/b] the limits of HAMAS's strategy, and that they have chosen what they believe to be right, and that we have no right to undermine their choice merely because we don't agree with either HAMAS's strategy, or the choices of the Gazan electorate.

And I'm disappointed, cos I've always been impressed by your contributions on other threads.
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As I don't write to please people, your disappointment is as balm to me. :)
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, I'm arguing that the Gazan people elected HAMAS with their eyes open, knowing/b] the limits of HAMAS's strategy, and that they have chosen what they believe to be right, and that we have no right to undermine their choice merely because we don't agree with either HAMAS's strategy, or the choices of the Gazan electorate.
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Ahhh, right. You're telling me to check my privilege. Got it. Now we know where we are eh?
 
SpackleFrog said:
Ahhh, right. You're telling me to check my privilege. Got it. Now we know where we are eh?
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No, I'm not telling you to check your privilege, I'm pointing out that if we live under democratic rules, we have no inherent right to criticise others that do, purely because we don't happen to agree with them.

Good of you to use a below the belt accusation, though.
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, I'm not telling you to check your privilege, I'm pointing out that if we live under democratic rules, we have no inherent right to criticise others that do, purely because we don't happen to agree with them.

Good of you to use a below the belt accusation, though.
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I'm sorry - I didn't mean it to seem below the belt. But that seems to me to be the crux of what you're saying - we should stay silent and listen as we have no 'right' to criticise. Isn't that what checking your privilege is about?

Your response honest to god sounds bizarre to me - are you saying that people who live in democratic societies have no inherent right to criticise other people who live in democratic societies? You say we live under democratic rules (I don't fully accept that but lets park that for now) so we therefore have no inherent right to criticise those who do (do Palestinian's live under democratic rules?). By the same token, do we have no right to criticise Israeli's who vote for Likud?

I'm genuinely trying to understand your point but it does seem to me that you're making a huge leap by conflating my criticism of Hamas as an organisation with some kind of unspoken belief that Palestinians shouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't get it.

If the Gazan's had voted for Fatah could I criticise them?
If I like something that Hamas does but a lot of Palestinians don't, do I have no right to praise Hamas?

Seriously VP, help me out cos I'm lost.
 
SpackleFrog said:
I'm sorry - I didn't mean it to seem below the belt. But that seems to me to be the crux of what you're saying - we should stay silent and listen as we have no 'right' to criticise. Isn't that what checking your privilege is about?
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I haven't said we should stay silent. I've said that we need to acknowledge that we have no inherent right to criticise. They're two different things.

Your response honest to god sounds bizarre to me - are you saying that people who live in democratic societies have no inherent right to criticise other people who live in democratic societies? You say we live under democratic rules (I don't fully accept that but lets park that for now) so we therefore have no inherent right to criticise those who do (do Palestinian's live under democratic rules?). By the same token, do we have no right to criticise Israeli's who vote for Likud?
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No, when I saywe have no inherent right to criticise, I mean that we have no inherent right for our criticism to be given credence - to be paid any attention to.

I'm genuinely trying to understand your point but it does seem to me that you're making a huge leap by conflating my criticism of Hamas as an organisation with some kind of unspoken belief that Palestinians shouldn't be allowed to vote. I don't get it.
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I'm not aware of having said or implied that criticism of HAMAS in any way equates to an "unspoken belief" on your part that Palestinians should be denied their franchise.

If the Gazan's had voted for Fatah could I criticise them?
If I like something that Hamas does but a lot of Palestinians don't, do I have no right to praise Hamas?
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See above.

Seriously VP, help me out cos I'm lost.
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Take the next left.
 
ViolentPanda said:
No, when I saywe have no inherent right to criticise, I mean that we have no inherent right for our criticism to be given credence - to be paid any attention to.
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Well obviously not, that's fair enough. Thanks for paying attention like.
 
PLO to pursue diplomatic efforts following ceasefire deal

The Palestinian leadership will pursue diplomatic efforts at the UN Security Council in a bid to end Israel's decades-long occupation following a ceasefire deal in Gaza, a senior Fatah official said late Wednesday.

Nabil Shaath told Ma'an that the PLO would first submit an application to the UN Security Council on Sept. 15 demanding a "timetable" for Israel's withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territory.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=723892&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
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Palestinian Islamic parade in Gaza today.

BwOYwDsCIAAeC0Z.jpg


Sporting the "Ghoul" - an occupied made sniper rifle.
 
Mouin Rabbani offers a serious and comprehensive analysis of where Protective Edge leaves Israel, Gaza and Hamas. Quick summary - the resistance's victory is overstated but real.
A regional superpower, it failed to impose its will on an isolated enemy operating in a besieged territory without advanced weaponry. Its sub-standard military performance was matched by a failure to reverse Palestinian reconciliation or deepen Palestinian fragmentation, and its overall strategic position has grown weaker. Led by a government too extreme to seize the initiative with proposals that will enjoy sufficient international support, Israel will continue to provoke challenges to a status quo it seeks to maintain amid a growing inability to confront them.
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Israel's "Operation Status Quo": A Preliminary Assessment
 
US Pentagon: Israel Shelled This Gaza Town Every 6 Seconds for 7 HOURS in ‘absolutely deadly’ Attack:

A summary report by the US Pentagon has revealed the overwhelming and wholly disproportionate use of force applied by Israel against predominantly civilian populations and infrastructure in Gaza during the six weeks of Operation Protective Edge.

Fewer places was this more apparent than Shejaia, a town of some 150,000 people on the eastern edge of Gaza City.

http://www.scriptonitedaily.com/201...onds-for-7-hours-in-absolutely-deadly-attack/
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The Pentagon are saying that? If you'll excuse my incredulity, I can't help but doubt that those are the Pentagon's words even if they are appropriate words.

Edit: All stuff under conditions of anonymity, but juicy nevertheless:
Although these reports shy from offering political judgments on the operation, a number of senior U.S. military officers who spoke about the contents of those daily reports were highly critical of some of the IDF’s tactics, particularly in the Israeli ground invasion of Shujaiya. An official spokesman at the Pentagon declined to comment on the contents of this article.

...

“Eleven battalions of IDF artillery is equivalent to the artillery we deploy to support two divisions of U.S. infantry,” a senior Pentagon officer with access to the daily briefings said. “That’s a massive amount of firepower, and it’s absolutely deadly.” Another officer, a retired artillery commander who served in Iraq, said the Pentagon’s assessment might well have underestimated the firepower the IDF brought to bear on Shujaiya. “This is the equivalent of the artillery we deploy to support a full corps,” he said. “It’s just a huge number of weapons.”
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http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/26/israel-bombing-stunsusofficers.html
 
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Israel to expropriate chunk of West Bank land

Israel announced plans on Sunday to expropriate 400 hectares (988 acres) of Palestinian land in the Bethlehem area in the south of the West Bank, the military said.

"On the instructions of the political echelon... 4,000 dunams at (the settlement of) Gevaot is declared as state land," the army said, adding that concerned parties have 45 days to appeal.

It said that the step stemmed from political decisions taken after the June killing of three Israeli teenagers snatched from a roadside in the same area, known to Israelis as Gush Etzion settlement bloc....
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