teqniq
DisMembered
If @MJayRosenberg is to be believed AIPAC pretty much control Congress and if anyone ought to have an insight into how things operate in this respect it ought to be him, he used to work for them.
Gaza under attack yet again.
- Thread starter Mr.Bishie
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Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
It could be posted on other sites. Also, I seem to remember a jewish journalist in the States, writing an article criticizing Obama for being scared of the pro-Israel Lobby.
So, people can be forgiven for focussing the US-Isreal relationship from different angles.
I would add that recently no US politicians dared to miss a vote in congress related to the supply of arms to Isreali. The reason being that the politicians are worried about having their sponsors pulled.
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8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
He's a racist headcase. The CIA are apparently re arranging his shoes.
http://www.dee sillustration.com/artwork.asp?item=714&cat=satire
NoXion
Craicy the Squirrel
Indeed it could, yet if it has a watermark that advertises a dodgy site then in my opinion that detracts from whatever worth it has. Not to mention that even without the dodgy watermark the picture looks to me like just the sort of thing that feeds into the delusions of hasbara types, which is not surprising considering the source.
Contrast it with those infographics showing how most of the victims of Israeli aggression in the Gaza strip are young civilians, propaganda which is much harder for the hasbara types to twist in their favour.
Andrew Hertford
Chocolate Jesus
Fuck! This is the last place I'd expect to see some of Dees' vile fascist artwork.
You've been doing a great job on this thread Mr.Bishie, this was just a lapse, right?
You've been doing a great job on this thread Mr.Bishie, this was just a lapse, right?
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye,let's stick to the issues like thousands of innocent civilians being terrorised and murdered by a supposedly civilised democracy
Combustible
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be true even if he did say it but do you have a reliable source for the Sharon quote? Because if you google it you mainly get Press TV and conspiracy websites (the website of holocaust denier David Irving is the 6th result).
coley
Well-Known Member
It wouldn't be true? How do you explain the unequivocal support Israel gets from the US?
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
It's a bullshit racist quote from anti semites.
Don't get me wrong the Israeli lobby in America is incredibly strong. As in the Irish American. As is the Oil Lobby. But the jews no more control america, than the Saudis or Dublin does.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
The US doesn't unequivocally support Israel. It generally does because Israel's actions usually help implement US policy in the Middle East and a Israel's behaviour is supported by those who do have a lot of power in the US political system, the military industrial complex and other corporate interests.
Israel is a country of 8 million people, Jews make up 2% of the US population and AIPAC has a budget of $67M. How could they control the foreign policy of the worlds largest superpower?
Okay. When doesn't USA unequivocally support Israel? As you said.
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Combustible
Well-Known Member
One example is that the US (under George Bush) refused Israel permission to bomb Iran.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/sep/25/iran.israelandthepalestinians
There are others. We will not necessary know everytime the US doesn't support Israel or forces Israel to change it's policy. And Israel knows full well that it can not seriously defy the US on which it is nearly entirely reliant.
No fair enough. I agree
Domestically including Palestine they get carte blanche though.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Sure, but that's because the US sees it as in its national interest to support it.
goldenecitrone
post tenebras lux
Hamas executes 18 suspected informers.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...cted-informers-israel-201482285624490268.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...cted-informers-israel-201482285624490268.html
coley
Well-Known Member
I agree, but as you say the Israeli lobby in America is incredibly strong, without wanting to go into conspiracloonry, I do find myself asking why? The Saudis, oil obviously, the Irish? I suppose sentiment, but how does support for Israel remain so steadfast in the light of the atrocities being committed.
I would honestly like a balanced answer however trying to find one on the internet always leads you to quite virulent anti Semitic sites and as a result I have stopped looking.
The pro-zionist entity lobby does not control America, but pretty much directs its foreign policy in the Middle East and Asia via a disproportionate amount of influence and power in the US. Come election time in the US, and you'll find all the presidential candidates fighting to speak at an AIPAC conference.
I was wearing my GAZA T-shirt last night and got a kebab on way home. I know the peeps in the bab shop and they liked theT-shirt but asked what I thought about about IS (ISIS). I know these chaps as I've been there a few times before and they are Kurdish Turks but moved here 10+ years ago.
We talked whilst I was waiting and discussed the general fucked up state of affairs in Syria and Iraq right now and generally agreed on what and why it's happening.
However they seemed a bit put out when I told them that the PKK missed killing me and my girlfriend at the time in Istanbul by 2 minutes many years ago in the central Bazaar in Istanbul.
We talked whilst I was waiting and discussed the general fucked up state of affairs in Syria and Iraq right now and generally agreed on what and why it's happening.
However they seemed a bit put out when I told them that the PKK missed killing me and my girlfriend at the time in Istanbul by 2 minutes many years ago in the central Bazaar in Istanbul.
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P.S I'm pretty sure I'm not not a target but was so close in the 7/7 bombings too.
My Piccadilly tube tube pulled into Kings Cross just as the bomb went off on the on the train that left in other direction.
My Piccadilly tube tube pulled into Kings Cross just as the bomb went off on the on the train that left in other direction.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/22/us-mideast-gaza-parliament-idUSKBN0GM1IM20140822
"Palestinian lawmakers have accused Israel of an anti-democratic crackdown as the Gaza war rages, with dozens of elected officials detained, placed under investigation or restricted in their movements.
Of the 84 MPs elected to the Palestinian parliament from the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 2006, 36 are in Israeli jails, two-thirds of them under what is known as "administrative detention", where the evidence against them is not disclosed.
The measures are the among the harshest ever against elected Palestinians in the occupied territories and come on top of restrictions imposed on Arab-Israelis in the Israeli parliament.
In the latest move, Khalida Jarrar, an MP from Ramallah, the main city in the West Bank, said she was woken up by Israeli troops in the early hours of Wednesday and told she had 24 hours to leave the city and move to Jericho, in the desert."
"Palestinian lawmakers have accused Israel of an anti-democratic crackdown as the Gaza war rages, with dozens of elected officials detained, placed under investigation or restricted in their movements.
Of the 84 MPs elected to the Palestinian parliament from the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 2006, 36 are in Israeli jails, two-thirds of them under what is known as "administrative detention", where the evidence against them is not disclosed.
The measures are the among the harshest ever against elected Palestinians in the occupied territories and come on top of restrictions imposed on Arab-Israelis in the Israeli parliament.
In the latest move, Khalida Jarrar, an MP from Ramallah, the main city in the West Bank, said she was woken up by Israeli troops in the early hours of Wednesday and told she had 24 hours to leave the city and move to Jericho, in the desert."
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Have a read of the article.
Anudder Oik
heinous pointless bellend/fucking gobshite muppet
Why?
co-op
But....but cLoWnFiSh....
The USA has used its Security Council veto 42 times since 1972 in order to veto Security Council Resolutions critical of Israel. It has only used its veto 37 times on every other issue in the whole world since WW2. That is pretty unequivocal, unconditional support for Israel in the top forum, where it really matters. They have written Israel a blank cheque and flourished it in public so that everyone else knows - although I never see this mentioned in the media.
It suits both sides to maintain an illusion that Israel and the USA fall out or "disagree" about things occasionally but I don't see how anyone could seriously argue that there are meaningful divergences of policy.
The example you give of the US banning Israel's sourcing Chinese weapons, will be far more to do with loss of profits or kickbacks etc by the US elite than any political falling out. The "refusing permission" stuff merely re-states the one-sided reality of the relationship, it does not undermine the fact that the US gives unconditional support to Israel.
Combustible
Well-Known Member
Israel is a US client state and generally does what the US wants it to do so of course they will normally veto critical UN resolutions.
The US did not ban Israel's sourcing Chinese weapons, the US banned Israel from selling weapons to the Chinese. This is not to do with loss of profits directly but because it was against the US national interest to improve China's anti-radar capabilities. And where the US national interest clashed with the Israeli national interest, the US forced Israel to back down. Similarly when Israel was told not to bomb Iran, it also was forced to back down. These things would not happen if Israel directed US foreign policy.
When the IDF kills Palestinians, it does not go against the US national interest and the use of high tech modern weaponry certainly boosts the profits of the defence industry, who have much more influence over US foreign policy.
Here's an interesting article about the Israel lobby. I'm not sure if I agree with it - it's very difficult to establish just how much power it has, and quite what that power is conditioned on. But anyway:
I think talk of the lobby controlling American foreign policy even on specific issues such as settlements and war in Gaza lacks the powerful explanatory factor it appears to have. Further such talk can segue into anti-semitic conspiracy mongering. Not that I have a problem with it as such, but I wish people were more careful about it.
It should also be noted that such talk removes blame from Obama and the American administration the more it removes their agency. There's a hasbara theme that the Palestinian cause is this leftist anti-imperialist stupidity that supports ISIS and supported Saddam etc. The real problem is that the cause is in danger of losing it's anti-imperialist character.
http://www.newleftproject.org/index.php/site/article_comments/knowing_too_much_and_the_jewish_lobby
I think talk of the lobby controlling American foreign policy even on specific issues such as settlements and war in Gaza lacks the powerful explanatory factor it appears to have. Further such talk can segue into anti-semitic conspiracy mongering. Not that I have a problem with it as such, but I wish people were more careful about it.
It should also be noted that such talk removes blame from Obama and the American administration the more it removes their agency. There's a hasbara theme that the Palestinian cause is this leftist anti-imperialist stupidity that supports ISIS and supported Saddam etc. The real problem is that the cause is in danger of losing it's anti-imperialist character.
coley
Well-Known Member
Fair enough but it still doesn't explain the seemingly unequivocal support from all levels of American society?
Why what?
Sirena
Don't monkey with the buzzsaw
A very bright American friend of mine (PhD etc) refused to understand that criticism of Israel did not automatically equal anti-semitism. It's just drip-drip media conditioning.
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