Gaza under attack yet again.

[frogwoman]

Small thing

Wish the zionist lunatics in my family would take notice

 

[uk benzo]

Wish the zionist lunatics in my family would take notice

Are they "zionist lunatics" because of religion? Because of the 'never again' philosophy? I really want some insight into this.

 

[brogdale]

Obviously there are potential long term solutions (withdraw to 67 lines ... blah blah ... etc) but what about the short term?

To concede that the occupying state would be prepared to talk about the (long-term) issues surrounding withdrawal from the occupied territories could be the most effective short-term means of stopping Hamas military action.

The Israeli state spokesmen so fond of asking us in the UK how we would feel about rockets being fired at London, don't ever ask us to imagine how we would feel if a zionist state had occupied the home counties.

 

[frogwoman]

Are they "zionist lunatics" because of religion? Because of the 'never again' philosophy? I really want some insight into this.

I've got no idea mate. They're not particularly religious - but the father is Israeli (although as far as I know he isn't really that mental). Love gambling etc. During the Iraq war they got rid of the French products in their house because France did not support the war, I wish I was joking. I think they might have the Zionist shit as a substitute for religion. The woman who's just deleted me of Facebook has (or had) an Iranian boyfriend, the mother once told my mum and myself that she would have to disown her if they got married and started talking about tribes, and 'blood'! as I said before they are very materialistic and not really interested in religion.

The animals aspect is just fucking bizarre, she sent me a link to the owl hurt by Hamas story, err what about all the people who have died!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Ok, I've avoided posting on this thread until today whilst I tried to figure out where the middle ground is. But there isn't any really is there? What Israel is doing is indefensible. I've had a couple of private conversations with a couple of you so as not to create a shitfest on the thread, but I'm off the fence.

However, what would be a reasonable response from Israel to having fucktons of, so far non lethal, rockets being lobbed at them?

A reasonable response would be a proportionate response, not a disproportionate response that involved collective punishment.

Obviously there are potential long term solutions (withdraw to 67 lines ... blah blah ... etc) but what about the short term?

Let the rockets come on?

Why not? With a strike rate of about one fatality per 1500 "rockets", the cost to the state of Israel would be vanishingly low.

What can they do that doesn't involve killing hundreds of kids?

Remember the good old days in Northern Ireland? We used to go into republican enclaves and snatch PIRA command-level officers almost routinely. The IDF could do the same with the various mortar-throwers and their commanders. Extract people without killing them, then prosecute them on actual criminal charges rather than the usual dreamed-up bullshit used to nail Palestinians.

Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere but I'm not trawling 100 odd pages.

That's because you're a feckless, lazy boy!

 

[Mr.Bishie]

"@Omar_Gaza
No power, no water, no internet, land lines and mobile networks drop every second. I feel isolated\trapped. #GazaUnderAttack"

 

[ViolentPanda]

http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/1...-suspension-of-unrwa-spokesman-chris-gunness/



Ron Prosor is a fucking scumbag.

He's his own rhyming slang.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Hasbara doesn't mean "Israeli state spy", you goat-cock, it means "propagandist for the Zionists".

Alright pedant-either way I think its nuts to be accused of working for the Israeli's over a
minor political disagreement.

Goat cock is original, I'll give you that, but a bit mean :/

 

[Spymaster]

You've just said that you've been here 5 minutes and read nothing. So, you read up and respect other contributors or fuck off you arrogant entitled shit.

You can go and fuck yourself too, cunt dog.

uk benzo , sorry if I had you wrong but I take one word responses as unhelpful and ignorant. Butchersapron does them a lot. With question marks????????????

I'm over-sensitive on this as I've not been able to form an opinion despite having multiple interested parties, on both sides, as friends.

Again, apologies for my narky response but I was hoping for something more than "yes"!

 

[MrSki]

 

[ViolentPanda]

No you shall not. The other idiot will grow up and develop respect.

In which parallel universe?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Which is why some people have accused him of being a pro-Zionist propagandist.
I don't think Spacklefrog is, I think they're actually one of those people who believe in the rightness of their own opinions because it's their own opinion, IYSWIM.

Ta. I think anyone accusing me of being a Zionist propagandist is probably doing so because they like accusing people of being Zionist propagandists IYSWIM.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Hang on everyone, spacklefrog has been one of the best posters on this thread - asking serious questions, not minimizsing or over-emphasing stuff or just saying that this is bad. Hipiloon and the other loons have posted page after page of dodgy tripe unchallenged (mostly because i think people value the thread) - yet he (SF) is the one the decent posters turn on? SF has posted from the same angle as me - critical of hamas and the Israeli state. And if you're not starting from that position then, what use are you?

Thanks Butchers.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I don't agree with all his opinions but SpackleFrog definitely isn't a zionist.

You should - I'm right

 

[SpackleFrog]

Fuck the UN etc doesn't really constitute an analysis

Depends how important you think the UN is.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Small thing

Small but important, insofar as many middle-class Jewish Americans have previously toed the line on the basis of not making waves. Shows that sometimes, some people can't keep swallowing back the shame of conformity purely for the sake of an easy life.

 

[SpackleFrog]

I was frustrated that he repeatedly asked people for reasons why they supported BDS then only responded to one or two reasons given way down the list as a second or third thought, ignoring the stronger arguments - which seemed disingenuous, but no, I don't think he's a zionist.

Apologies if it doesn't seem developed enough - I just don't have the faith in BDS required to support it and wanted to know more from the other side, IYSWIM.

 

[agricola]

Remember the good old days in Northern Ireland? We used to go into republican enclaves and snatch PIRA command-level officers almost routinely. The IDF could do the same with the various mortar-throwers and their commanders. Extract people without killing them, then prosecute them on actual criminal charges rather than the usual dreamed-up bullshit used to nail Palestinians.

The thing is though that the IDF lacks the ability to do this any more - at least in Gaza - thanks to the siege, and more than a decade of using aerial power to pick that type of person off without bothering the court system about it. Bibi and OImert have turned Gaza into a fortified zone, ensured that many of its young men have nothing to do except train for a fight in an area all of them know intimately, given them several years to prepare for each war, given them all several thousand reasons to fight, and killed those fighters who werent good or lucky enough to survive.

 

[SpackleFrog]

To be fair I can't decide whether to support it either - you will see posts from me until very recently arguing that it's a bad idea for some of the reasons Spacklefrog has been arguing - I don't know what the solution is though? I really don't. I'm starting to think that it may be the only (very limited) way to put pressure on the Israeli government

I basically agree with this but a) what does BDS mean? and b) its so limited why bother?

 

[Pickman's model]

Nowhere in the UK, but plenty of slum communities in Latin America, Africa and Asia. That's basically the goal right? To reduce Gazans to that state?

i don't think you've quite grasped the logical outcome of the zionist assault.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Depends how important you think the UN is.

Well, how important are they?
I'd say that historically, they're reasonably important as a body that has formulated, codified and ratified rights that were previously "gentlemens' agreements" between nations, and as a body that has helped to quell previously-widespread human disease. They may not have achieved everything they've set out to do, and the council may have an execrable veto system that has allowed some states (not just Israel) to escape sanction, but would the people of the world be better-off without the UN or a UN analogue, than with it? History indicates we'd be considerably worse off.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

I basically agree with this but a) what does BDS mean? and b) its so limited why bother?

A trade union doesn't exist without a membership.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Which word you use is academic, given that, as tunnels, any "neutralisation" isn't permanent.

My point was it would be easier to justify claiming to have neutralised X amount of tunnels than to have destroyed X amount of tunnels.

 

[Pickman's model]

Depends how important you think the UN is.

it still doesn't really constitute an analysis.

 

[brogdale]

Small thing

Smaller thing

....but this bit is interesting...

Kind regards,

Margot

Margot James MP

Member of Parliament for Stourbridge

PPS to the Rt Hon William Hague MP, Leader of the House

 

[Pickman's model]

My point was it would be easier to justify claiming to have neutralised X amount of tunnels than to have destroyed X amount of tunnels.

or to have attritted them.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And in Gaza it isn't just a lack of clean water and sewerage, it's a lack of medicines, a lack of adequate nutrition, and a lack of hope.
It's nice to see SpackleFrog saying that others lack clean water too, although perhaps SpackleFrog hasn't considered that others may not have the same political and military pressures on them as the Gazans.

Wtf is this? I obviously didn't mean that because others don't have clean water then that's fine, I meant that's the kind of living conditions the Israeli state wants to force on Gazan's.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Are they "zionist lunatics" because of religion? Because of the 'never again' philosophy? I really want some insight into this.

Zionism is not really anything to do with religion (or rather, Judaism) per se, it's about the idea of a homeland (and by "a homeland" I DO NOT mean Palestine) for Jews, whether they're religious or not.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wtf is this? I obviously didn't mean that because others don't have clean water then that's fine, I meant that's the kind of living conditions the Israeli state wants to force on Gazan's.

i say again, i don't think you've quite grasped the logical outcome of this vicious assault.

 

[SpackleFrog]

i don't think you've quite grasped the logical outcome of the zionist assault.

Talk me through it then blood - I assume its about reducing Palestinians to such a state of misery they just give up any claim to land and live as 2nd class citizens in an Israeli state. Where have I gone wrong here?