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Gaza under attack yet again.

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Pickman's model said:
it still doesn't really constitute an analysis.
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I think the UN is pretty meaningless. I don't think it matters what the UN says as it won't affect the outcome. I therefore prefer to understand words as meaning what dictionaries and people think they mean.

Jesus, I sort of love Urban for this but it's hard work sometimes, you know?
 
SpackleFrog said:
Talk me through it then blood - I assume its about reducing Palestinians to such a state of misery they just give up any claim to land and live as 2nd class citizens in an Israeli state. Where have I gone wrong here?
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why do you assume that? it's long been said that the gaza strip's a big old prison camp. what happens when the 'guards' destroy the means of subsistence, kill a fuck load of the prisoners and force the remainder into a considerably smaller area? it's not persuasion to accept terms, it's something rather different imo.
 
Pickman's model said:
why do you assume that? it's long been said that the gaza strip's a big old prison camp. what happens when the 'guards' destroy the means of subsistence, kill a fuck load of the prisoners and force the remainder into a considerably smaller area? it's not persuasion to accept terms, it's something rather different imo.
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I'm not calling it persuasion - but if I understand correctly you mean the ultimate aim is genocide-to wipe out the Gazan's? Think I've already touched on this issue in earlier posts...
 
SpackleFrog said:
My point was it would be easier to justify claiming to have neutralised X amount of tunnels than to have destroyed X amount of tunnels.
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Well sure, but if you're setting up "neutralisation" and "destruction" as separate categories, you then have the problem (from the propagandist's point of view) of admitting that "neutralisation" can mean anything from "sealed off the ends of the tunnel to put it out of use" to "have a chopper buzzing overhead of where we thing an access point is, for 5 minutes in every hour", and while the propagandist would prefer you to focus on the former, people are cynical and will, without other info, focus on the latter.
 
Pickman's model said:
there's wiping out and wiping out and it's a lot easier on your rep if it's not done by gunning down thousands of people but letting them starve and die from disease.
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Hm. Fair. But it's still gonna look like the Israeli state has murdered everyone by denying them water/sanitation/power/health etc. It won't be all that much easier on their rep.
 
SpackleFrog said:
Wtf is this? I obviously didn't mean that because others don't have clean water then that's fine, I meant that's the kind of living conditions the Israeli state wants to force on Gazan's.
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It's not obvious, quite obviously, to anyone who isn't you, or so many people wouldn't have had a "what the fuck" moment at what you said.
 
This young girl lost all of her family

Bt5n7LdCIAIpW6y.jpg:large


No words :(
 
Pickman's model said:
why do you assume that? it's long been said that the gaza strip's a big old prison camp. what happens when the 'guards' destroy the means of subsistence, kill a fuck load of the prisoners and force the remainder into a considerably smaller area? it's not persuasion to accept terms, it's something rather different imo.
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Population concentration: Sometimes an end in itself, sometimes the means to another end.
 
ViolentPanda said:
A reasonable response would be a proportionate response, not a disproportionate response that involved collective punishment.
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Agreed. But what would that be?

Why not? With a strike rate of about one fatality per 1500 "rockets", the cost to the state of Israel would be vanishingly low.
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Perhaps in the cost of lives. But they're not viewing it that way are they? The way they see it is that they're under constant attack, and the fear and disruption that that causes requires a short term response to stop it.

They've elected to stop it.

Remember the good old days in Northern Ireland? We used to go into republican enclaves and snatch PIRA command-level officers almost routinely. The IDF could do the same with the various mortar-throwers and their commanders. Extract people without killing them, then prosecute them on actual criminal charges rather than the usual dreamed-up bullshit used to nail Palestinians.
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Whilst targeted extractions may have worked in the rolling countyside of South Armagh and the odd high risk venture into populated enclaves, is that really an option in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet?

They would fail, surely?
 
SpackleFrog said:
Hm. Fair. But it's still gonna look like the Israeli state has murdered everyone by denying them water/sanitation/power/health etc. It won't be all that much easier on their rep.
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Well, the US proved quite well in Iraq during reconstruction that it's quite easy to pass off problems like people dying through reference to locals not using the various systems properly, etc. Blaming "stupid natives" has long been a primary fallback for states whose policies have caused harm to locals.
 
Spymaster said:
Agreed. But what would that be?
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Well, Israel could fire the same number and quality of mortar back into Gaza. That'd be nicely farcical and surreal.


Perhaps in the cost of lives. But they're not viewing it that way are they? The way they see it is that they're under constant attack, and the fear and disruption that that causes requires a short term response to stop it.

They've elected to stop it.
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No, they haven't.
They've elected to suspend it for a non-calculable period of time. That's all. They don't want the Gazans losing hope, until they can utterly crush them, and "Protective Edge" won't do that. This is just another chess move in the state of Israel's game-plan for Gaza.


Whilst targeted extractions may have worked in the rolling countyside of South Armagh and the odd high risk venture into populated enclaves, is that really an option in one of the most densely populated areas on the planet?

They would fail, surely?
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We used to pull them off successfully in west Belfast, you pilchard. :facepalm:
 
ViolentPanda said:
It's not obvious, quite obviously, to anyone who isn't you, or so many people wouldn't have had a "what the fuck" moment at what you said.
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No-hang on. To assume someone means that a population of people who have no access to safe drinking water is fine and dandy when you have no prior evidence that they're a
total loon is a bit off.
 
Spymaster said:
Perhaps in the cost of lives. But they're not viewing it that way are they. The way they see it is that they're under constant attack, and the fear and disruption that that causes requires a short term response to stop it.

They've elected to stop it.
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That may be what they are told, but we (and probably they, deep down) all know what the truth of the matter is.

To use the current Israeli analogie du jour for an example - I am sure that many of the Germans in the Second World War felt under constant attack because Bomber Command came over most evenings and gave them what for, and that they wanted to try and stop that bombing from happening - but of course the reason why the RAF was dropping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of RDX onto them all is because of what the then German government was doing to most of Europe. Once those crimes were stopped, so did the constant attack.
 
so many orphans. It's fucking painful to see all these kids lose their parents in an instant- then have to manage to find the courage to survive themselves.

These kids have been robbed of their families and their childhoods. FUCK YOU CUNT MOTHERFUXKING RACIST PIG CHILD MURDERING ANIMALS!
 
ViolentPanda said:
Well, Israel could fire the same number and quality of mortar back into Gaza. That'd be nicely farcical and surreal.
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Quite. And the rockets would keep coming!

No, they haven't.
They've elected to suspend it for a non-calculable period of time. That's all. They don't want the Gazans losing hope, until they can utterly crush them, and "Protective Edge" won't do that. This is just another chess move in the state of Israel's game-plan for Gaza.
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Then why don't they just raise the whole fucking place? They could do it in a week AND get away with it if the piss-poor international response is any indicator. What is the game plan for Gaza?

We used to pull them off successfully in west Belfast, you pilchard.
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No you didn't. You managed to "pull off" a coupla hundred (max) dudes, of debateble levels of seniority and usefulness, over 25 years, by infiltration into West Belfast, at a heavy cost. In Gaza they're facing tens of thousands of guys, armed to the fucking teeth, and ready and waiting.

You sardine! :p
 
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agricola said:
To use the current Israeli analogie du jour for an example - I am sure that many of the Germans in the Second World War felt under constant attack because Bomber Command came over most evenings and gave them what for, and that they wanted to try and stop that bombing from happening - but of course the reason why the RAF was dropping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of RDX onto them all is because of what the then German government was doing to most of Europe. Once those crimes were stopped, so did the constant attack.
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Spot on. And THIS is why the situation is intractable.

"PEACE" requires the total destruction of one regime or the other, which will never happen.
 
Violent Panda
Remember the good old days in Northern Ireland? We used to go into republican enclaves and snatch PIRA command-level officers almost routinely. The IDF could do the same with the various mortar-throwers and their commanders. Extract people without killing them, then prosecute them on actual criminal charges rather than the usual dreamed-up bullshit used to nail Palestinians



......This is total bollox, what IRA commanders ? "IRA commanders," never stayed in the same safe house for more then a couple of nights. It took an army company to go into some republican areas to back up the RUC in arresting someone, even for a misdemeanor.

lets not also forget when the South Armagh sniper was operating there was a near mutiny when soldiers refused to come out of their Vehicle check points.
 
Som 72 hour ceasefire announced. I'm guessing this is connected to the (ludicrous) Israeli claim that they have destroyed 80% of tunnels - 'hey, we've done our job, we can stop now'
 
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