G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[berniedicters]

Take Look at the history of TROTS, it has imposed itself on workers struggles. It has been opportunistic and parasitical. The bulk of the SWP were at the American embassy on April 1st for another dismal Islamic/trot love-in with the SAME FUCKING SPEAKERS!

The so called ANARCHIST movement, is just hype, agreed what was seen on G20 would be a shock, but this is the aim objective of such policing, we name it intimidation escalation, and do as The Police did G20, there is little wonder a man is killed, but a few batons on the heads of a few middle class might have just woken them up.

slabs of diatribe do not help agreed, my comments have been very much in keeping with the events pointing out the abuse and actions of The Police that day, and as said on R4 today (20 4 09) there was not Tear Gas Watter Cannons etc, so lets take matters in proportion shall we, what was seen on G20 is what most working class people see at football matches, in there everyday life's are there asking for the state to look at itself of course not.

Yes the truth needs to come out over Ian,s death and if you look read between the lines it has done, but all this fucking bleating on for Justice is just a cul de sac.

You see, you still completely miss the point. I'm not interested in the internecine conflicts between the various factions and gradations of left-leaning groups. I don't know enough about them to BE interested - and I'm not sure, on the basis of what you're serving up, that I WANT to know much more.

Let's get back to basics here - we, many of us, have some grave concerns about the way we are being policed. This has come to a head with the demos on 1st and 2nd April, where a man died in circumstances which suggest police actions as, at the very least, a proximate cause. An opportunity has presented itself to get the police bang to rights on some of the nastier practices they've been indulging in for decades. And YOU want to turn the whole thing into some kind of sideshow about whose ideology is the purest??? Quite apart from the disrespect inherent in hijacking the death of a man to such tawdry purpose, don't you see what an opportunity you're missing? Do you really believe that the pettifogging niceties of your grievances against other groupings matter more than the broader issue of civil liberties and how we may (or may not) be allowed to protest in future?

Honestly, get over yourself.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

nothing wrong with these complaints as to the conduct of enumbers, however, it maintains the derail to try and reason with the poster.

this is a point of prinicpal which is unwaverying.

no one on this thread has any intrest in enumbers attempted poltical capital from Ian Tomlinson's death. The very action negates any vailidity of enumbers points.

can we please not feed the troll.

 

[winjer]

what was seen on G20 is what most working class people see at football matches

Yeah, it was just like the football:

Yes the truth needs to come out over Ian,s death and if you look read between the lines it has done, but all this fucking bleating on for Justice is just a cul de sac.

So is your attempted derail of this thread, take it elsewhere.

 

[Corax]

Picking one comment out:

as said on R4 today (20 4 09) there was not Tear Gas Watter Cannons etc

Yeah, I heard that and found it sickening. I didn't catch who was talking, but I think they were a senior cop. The message they were putting across was "How dare you object to being batoned, punched and kicked? Think yourselves lucky. If we had our way we'd be gassing and w-cannoning you."

 

[Groucho]

The SWP has taken advantage of the political vacuum left by anarcho-inactivity and set up its own Justice For Ian Tomlinson campaign grafting on its usual cronies in the Muslim Association of Britain and Palestine Solidarity Campaign. ...

In fact a 'United Campaign Against Police Violence' is in the process of being set up and includes representatives of G20 Meltdown, the Green Party, the StWC, the SWP, unions and which is in contact with the solicitors for Ian Tomlinson's family.

 

[winjer]

In fact a 'United Campaign Against Police Violence' is in the process of being set up and includes representatives of G20 Meltdown, the Green Party, the StWC, the SWP, unions and which is in contact with the solicitors for Ian Tomlinson's family.

And LDMG.

 

[Struwwelpeter]

I didn't catch who was talking, but I think they were a senior cop.

I think it was Chief Superintendent Derek Barnett, vice president of the Police Superintendents' Association (see R4 website).

IIRC he also said something like "the police were facing thousands of protestors intent on violence".* I don't know whether it was a slip of the tongue or a blatent lie, but even if the former, it shows the prejudices inherent in the police at a senior level.

I hope that the R4 audience will realise that this is not a few "rotten apples" story, it is endemic within the system from the PCSOs up to the Home Office politicians who pass bad law.

*Edited to add: maybe he meant "the police were intent on violence facing thousands of protestors"

 

[e19896]

just for refference don't ever confuse as you have done here the PSC as being some SWP shop front or even attempt that personal polictcal attack from a launchpad of your own personal prejudices...

got any proof of this outragious claim if so do post it up...

which is what you're doing here and oddly at the same time critising the SWP for it's bandwagoneering whilst attempting to do the same ...

AGAIN.

not the first time you've used someones death to promote your own poltical ends is it...

enumbers...

and this http://www.defendpeacefulprotest.org/ is what?

 

[Kaka Tim]

I think it was Chief Superintendent Derek Barnett, vice president of the Police Superintendents' Association (see R4 website).

IIRC he also said something like "the police were facing thousands of protestors intent on violence".* I don't know whether it was a slip of the tongue or a blatent lie, but even if the former, it shows the prejudices inherent in the police at a senior level.

I hope that the R4 audience will realise that this is not a few "rotten apples" story, it is endemic within the system from the PCSOs up to the Home Office politicians who pass bad law.

*Edited to add: maybe he meant "the police were intent on violence facing thousands of protestors"

He also said that police were faced with two options - containing the crowd (i.e. kettling) or forcefully dispersing them.

How about option 3? Allowing people to demonstrate freely FFS.

We also need to keep banging away to the media etc that the g20 was NOT a riot. There was no violent mob. there were no petriol bombs. There were no showers of missiles. There were a few scuffels with the police and a few windows were smashed early on in the day - yet the police treated everybody as if we were on some sort of rampage - and they got increasingly violent as the day went on.

 

[ddraig]

Sir Ken Jones apologistises

count yourselves lucky
few bad apples etc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8007580.stm

Its president, Sir Ken Jones, said that policing of protests in the UK was "proportionate" and recent criticisms had lacked objectivity and perspective.

"We need to make sure we don't condemn the many for the problems created by a few," he told BBC Radio 4's Today.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission has had almost 90 complaints relating to the London protests.

Its chairman, Nick Hardwick, has expressed concerns over the supervision of officers on the front line.

Sir Ken said people needed to realise how well demonstrations were policed in the UK.

"I can't find any other country which doesn't use water cannon, CS gas, rubber bullets. Our approach is proportionate and, in fact, has delivered on many other occasions," he said.

well now i see the light! fanks ossifer, nothing to see here, *ddoffs cap

 

[e19896]

And LDMG.

this http://www.defendpeacefulprotest.org/ and the death of a working class person becomes cannon foder for those involved with this front, fucking de-rail indeed just said stuff that perhaps should not have been said, consdering the make up of those involved with the G20 it was going to cause upset and shouts of de-rail, meanwhile The Trots sell there papers, sit in a room with every vangard front, and the death of Ian becomes another Blair Peach

'Despite our repeated requests to be searched and allowed to leave the space, we were held there for six hours with no access to water, food, toilets or medical care. Proudly, throughout all this, not one person in the crowd reacted with violence to any person or property. People shared the little they had and held public meetings about the aims of the G20 summit. There was little show of anger, but much unhappiness. When, finally, we were herded out one by one at midnight, I felt cold to the core, chilled by the unprovoked aggression of those who I had been brought up to trust. I am deeply ashamed of my state, in which reasonable and calm protesters are criminalised and provoked in such a manner.

Their use of section 14 on 800 campers was mindless, their violence was a tragedy and their very presence, with armoured cars and helicopters, a ridiculous waste of public money.'

Beth McGrath From The Climate Camp, The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/libertycentral/2009/apr/02/g20-protest-climate-camp

Sounds like Sheffield City Center on a friday night:

 

[Struwwelpeter]

Sir Ken Jones apologistises

Looks like I fingered the wrong guy! Oh well, unlike the police I'll admit my mistake and apologise immediately.

 

[berniedicters]

blah blah blah...the death of a working class person ...blah blah blah

Maybe I'm out of step with the political zeitgeist here (in which case I'll happily be corrected), but this stinks of tokenism. The man who died was a person. A citizen, killed during an interaction with a group of police officers. I think it's an insult to him, anyone reading this, and anyone who truly wants just to live in a society where we can be free to express ourselves - within reasonable limits - without fear of violence or suppression to try and turn this into a class issue.

AGAIN, I think that tokenising this individual as some kind of "working class" totem is to hijack the far more important issue that this situation has brought up.

Urban, am I wrong? Is it more important that the man who died was working class? Should we somehow be regarding this whole business differently depending on some arbitrary class distinction around who dies when they get shoved over by a pumped-up copper?

 

[bouncer_the_dog]

Sir Ken Jones apologistises

count yourselves lucky
few bad apples etc
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8007580.stm

well now i see the light! fanks ossifer, nothing to see here, *ddoffs cap

I listened to that. I was amazed at how blatently he was trying to spin it.

He says police forces in other countries use CS Gas, Water Cannons and Rubber Bullets on rioters. But the people we are concerned with are people who weren't rioting and were being twatted by the police.

And going on about 'a few bad apples' and 'looking at hings in the round'. Why is it ok to do that for the police and not the protestors - I mean rioterts?

The problem he has is when you look at it 'in the round' the Met and City of London Police look like a load of paranoid thugs.

 

[cesare]

The problem he has is when you look at it 'in the round' the Met and City of London Police look like a load of paranoid thugs.

Exactly.

 

[winjer]

and this http://www.defendpeacefulprotest.org/ is what?

A website set up by some concerned individuals, not any of the groups you mention.

 

[e19896]

A website set up by some concerned individuals, not any of the groups you mention.

So there are not The Trots, and others now they become concerned individuals, some people need to join the ipcc with such blaitent whitewash, meanwhile those who murderd Ian are still erm helping old ladys across the road..

 

[winjer]

So there are not The Trots, and others now they become concerned individuals, some people need to join the ipcc with such blaitent whitewash, meanwhile those who murderd Ian are still erm helping old ladys across the road..

No you idiot, they are separate from the Trots. Not Trots. No interest in icepicks. Never even been to Kirovohrad Oblast. Do you see?

"We'll be meeting up with a wider campaign against police violence very shortly to see how we can keep up the pressure and work together."

http://planethackney.blogspot.com/2009/04/police-taser-raids-on-whitechapel.html

 

[nick h.]

Any chance of getting this thread back on track? Perhaps enumbers could start his own thread called 'where did it all go wrong for the left', with a nice pic of Neil Kinnock falling over on the beach?

 

[winjer]

One former Met commander believes there were not enough senior officers to manage the police operation.

John O'Connor told Sky News: "Because the main men in charge were not on the streets there's a huge problem in ensuring the rules and regulations are fully implemented, and officers are left to their own devices."

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK...olice_Tactics_During_Demonstrations_In_London

One of the two ground commanders, Chief Superintendent Alex Robertson (CoLP TSG), was on Cornhill when Ian Tomlinson was assaulted, as Last Hours report. The other - CS Mick Johnson (Met TSG) - was on Bartholomew Lane outside RBS shortly before it was smashed. There were only two other 'men in charge' above them, Commander Bob Broadhurst and Chief Superintendent Ian Thomas of the Met.

 

[Corax]

Urban, am I wrong? Is it more important that the man who died was working class?

I'm sure I'll get murdered for this, but I've always felt the working/middle class distinction, in today's society, is so facile as to be utterly bollox.

 

[Crispy]

I'm sure I'll get murdered for this, but I've always felt the working/middle class distinction, in today's society, is so facile as to be utterly bollox.

Now you've done it!

 

[DotCommunist]

facepalm

 

[Corax]

I'm not saying they're the same, I'm saying there's more subdivisions. The 'media class' spring instantly to mind, as an entirely different beast to the wage slave that holds down an mediocre admin job and struggles to pay the bills, yet both would be regarded as 'middle class' by many.

I must be feckin mental........

*waits, holding breath*

ETA: I'm sure this has been done before by smarter people than me, and it's a total derail, so I'll leave it.

 

[berniedicters]

I'm sure I'll get murdered for this, but I've always felt the working/middle class distinction, in today's society, is so facile as to be utterly bollox.

Well, I'd go so far as to say that every time it's been used to make any kind of point, the distinction has seemed utterly specious. If there is a distinction which isn't "utterly bollox", I haven't seen it being made here.

 

[winjer]

I'm sure I'll get murdered for this, but I've always felt the working/middle class distinction, in today's society, is so facile as to be utterly bollox.

Try coming on the UFFC rally* this October, it'll show your comment to be so facile as to be utterly bollox.

* The United Families & Friends Campaign is a coalition of families and friends of those that have died in the custody of police and prison officers as well as those who are killed in secure psychiatric hospitals.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

and this http://www.defendpeacefulprotest.org/ is what?

a 404 and totally irrelevant you gold plated knob.

YOU are using the death for YOUR policitcal capital to promote YOUR poltical agenda.

it is this which is distastful.

and also what you accuse others of doing, which makes you a hypocrte.

final discussion on this subject, i'm not responding to either your dispicable posts or pandering further your attention seeking.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

a 404 and totally irrelevant you gold plated knob.

YOU are using the death for YOUR policitcal capital to promote YOUR poltical agenda.

it is this which is distastful.

and also what you accuse others of doing, which makes you a hypocrte.

final discussion on this subject, i'm not responding to either your dispicable posts or pandering further your attention seeking.

I think you have a point. When I heard the Ian Tomlinson case turning into a proper news story, I partly thought that this is a good thing for the protest movement. I was immidiately disgusted with myself, as someone died for no reason and he didn't give a fuck about any of it (as far as I know...). I'm sure IT would have happily remained alive, rather than turning into some kind of political martyr.

And yet that is kind of what happened. But demanding that something is done about it is the right thing to do. Should we just sit back whilst the state erodes our civil liberties? Or should we demand justice and change? The fact that he died is not the fault of any proesters or anyone posting in this thread. I would rather he was alive. But we can't change the past, we can only influence the future.

 

[e19896]

a 404 and totally irrelevant you gold plated knob.

YOU are using the death for YOUR policitcal capital to promote YOUR poltical agenda.

it is this which is distastful.

and also what you accuse others of doing, which makes you a hypocrte.

final discussion on this subject, i'm not responding to either your dispicable posts or pandering further your attention seeking.

attention seeking and a poltical agenda yes i agree, mine is to ensure all those involved with the murder of Ian are dealt with, but as an anarchist i have no faith in the likes of the ippc, this is just a cul de sac of nowhere, joining forces with other vangards is much the same cul de sac of nowhere is this distastful to point out these fact hold view a point about the murder of Ian or is it the fact it is myself that has pointed out this information, one is not giveing info on a wire where police and others read, but those who know me also trust me, GarfieldLeChat your actions are as just distastful and have been to de-rail the topic while pointing the finger at myself, ill make it clear i desire very much for the truth of The Murder of Ian to come out, but justice in a state of capitil will be a long time comeing..

I think you have a point. When I heard the Ian Tomlinson case turning into a proper news story, I partly thought that this is a good thing for the protest movement. I was immidiately disgusted with myself, as someone died for no reason and he didn't give a fuck about any of it (as far as I know...). I'm sure IT would have happily remained alive, rather than turning into some kind of political martyr.

And yet that is kind of what happened. But demanding that something is done about it is the right thing to do. Should we just sit back whilst the state erodes our civil liberties? Or should we demand justice and change? The fact that he died is not the fault of any proesters or anyone posting in this thread. I would rather he was alive. But we can't change the past, we can only influence the future.

No we should not, but as said nither place faith in The likes of The IPCC.

 

[berniedicters]

attention seeking and a poltical agenda yes i agree, mine is to ensure all those involved with the murder of Ian are dealt with,

And this is another fucking great footbullet.

Most people on here are clear enough in their words to make it obvious that they do connect Tomlinson's death with the violence inflicted upon him, but they stop short of alleging murder.

You, on the other hand, lard your posts at every opportunity with this unfounded accusation. It undermines your cause. It's factually incorrect, because for it to have been murder, certain specific things would have had to happen, none of which have...and even if they had, there is the small matter of proving it in a court of law. YOU would be outraged if one of your boot boys was being accused, repeatedly in a public forum, of murder because he pushed someone over and they died. But you're happy to make the same - utterly unfounded - allegation time and time again on here. I think you may even have been asked to stop doing it, but a little thing like that doesn't stop you.

Ian Tomlinson died. It is very likely that he died when he did because of something a police officer did to him. That is bad enough, and if it is shown that his death really was a direct consequence of police actions, then it's a very serious matter that needs addressing, not just at the individual copper level, but structurally, because what happened to Ian happened to lots of other people on that day, too - it just happens that none of them died. Whether or not it was murder, quite apart from being very unlikely, is utterly irrelevant, and only serves to make those suggesting it - and any associated with them, which might explain the ever-widening gulf between you, enumbers, and most of the rest of Urban - look like morons.