G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[Callie]

It's not like anywhere esle though callie.

Apparently so

Which is why there are no routes in, no-one is keeping an eye or monitoring what goes on.

It's confusing cos that is so important in my line of work, you would hope that the same could be said for the law enforcers, those that make sure everyone else walks the line.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Police apparently work to an unofficial booklet called "Guide to Public Order Situations". Doesnt seem easy to find, maybe that's the idea. Be good to know a bit more about it, how often it is changed etc.

 

[butchersapron]

Still could do with clarification at what level this is, some kind of code or term of employment?

Ceriainly. You'll get passed from regional ro regional force, from level to level and so on. If there's a national statutory requirement they make/made it hard to find

 

[OneStrike]

I would love to know answers to these questions. I can only presume there is no legal or explicit internal requrement to be identifiable as their superiors would be at risk of a bollocking if this wasn't enforced.

I have experienced the removal of numbers many times, especially with the robocops, i've not seen so many in balaclavas up until 01/04/09 though. There is something seriously wrong with these actions.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I would love to know answers to these questions. I can only presume there is no legal or explicit internal requrement to be identifiable as their superiors would be at risk of a bollocking.

I have experienced the removal of numbers many times, especially with the robocops, i've not seen so many in balaclavas up until 01/04/09 though. There is something seriously wrong with these actions.

It's very common practice, and can only be so if sanctioned from high up.

 

[Callie]

I know this is going off on a tangent but are there many people that joined the police force and left and are happy to discuss the way things are/were with the general public? Bit of insider knowledge so to speak?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

It's very common practice, and can only be so if sanctioned from high up.

course not. it can be sanctioned by any officer who decides to remove visible id and hide behind his riot gear. spg/tsg/etc.

 

[laptop]

Still could do with clarification at what level this is, some kind of code or term of employment?

It doesn't appear in the Dress Code Policy document released under the Freedom of Information Act at http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/policies/dress_code_policy.pdf

So, as I said, the safe thing to say is that it's an order by the Commissioner (as reported in the press).

How this is communicated to officers, I don't know. But they have disobeyed it.

You could, if you run out of more important things to say, ask why the Commissioner appears to have left it so vague - to have left officers such wriggle-room.

One other interesting point that does appear in the code is:

• Only authorised items of clothing and equipment purchased in accordance with MPA Regulations are to be issued to and worn by individuals.

Would that apply to Constable Angry's forearm armour, then?

There are 187 results for "code" on http://www.met.police.uk/cgi-bin/htsearch - I haven't read them all.

 

[paolo]

Random stuff, sorry if I'm coming in late, been away for a day or so...

I've just watched the dog bite video on "white bloke / white shirt & white trousers" and am not sympathising on what I've seen. Am I missing something?

I bought the Express today (the first time purchase of shame!)... dreadful. Both the reporting and her statement. Doesn't seem tally up with what we've seen. This irritates me because the last week or so has been about exposing the truth, not spin. The video is clear, but her Daily Express stuff (assuming they haven't misquote her - which is possible), is tainted.

On the other hand, lots of other positive stuff. Graun is still at it, and the other broadsheets are still going at it too.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

i have to say that i think the Graun should be applauded for their persistence on this tbh.

 

[paolo]

i have to say that i think the Graun should be applauded for their persistence on this tbh.

They got the scoop, and are then naturally 'owning' the story. Arguably it could have any other, but it's been good to pick it up each morning and see them keep it going.

Under the radar, "We" (i.e. randoms!) have kept it going with youtube and photos, 'Above the radar', the Graun has led the charge.

This is good stuff. If we're meant to be an accountable society, it means everyone.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

'arguably any other'?! - hmmmm, not so sure but i accept your wider point. interesting to see how coverage has evolved over the past few days.

but yes, take the power back.

 

[OneStrike]

I fully appreciate the the Guardian aren't operating on an altruistic level, but credit where it's due. They have pushed this along in the knowledge that they have 'broken ranks' with the met (and other forces). If other papers were handed ths exclusive i doubt there would have been the same progress. BTW i don't read any national newspaper with any regularity, i've been a staunch critic of many of them so feel obliged to give a thumbs up on this occasion.

 

[paolo]

'arguably any other'?! - hmmmm, not so sure

'Any other....' far less likely, for sure.

I've been a very proud graun reader this last week or so. They've led on a story that they probably didn't know how big it would become (and I think neither did "we", even if "we" knew how big it should be).

 

[desdichado]

Not to be rude but most CCTV these days isn't videotape in corporate London. As such it seems unlikely that recordings will not be kept for 28/31 days in length which are pretty much standard. This seems something of a canard to my mind.

[Sorry missed the word not]

 

[moon23]

I fully appreciate the the Guardian aren't operating on an altruistic level, but credit where it's due. They have pushed this along in the knowledge that they have 'broken ranks' with the met (and other forces). If other papers were handed ths exclusive i doubt there would have been the same progress. BTW i don't read any national newspaper with any regularity, i've been a staunch critic of many of them so feel obliged to give a thumbs up on this occasion.

Yes Guardian is doing a top job on this one

 

[paolo]

I fully appreciate the the Guardian aren't operating on an altruistic level, but credit where it's due. They have pushed this along in the knowledge that they have 'broken ranks' with the met (and other forces). If other papers were handed ths exclusive i doubt there would have been the same progress. BTW i don't read any national newspaper with any regularity, i've been a staunch critic of many of them so feel obliged to give a thumbs up on this occasion.

Well put.

 

[Callie]

Not to be rude but most CCTV these days isn't videotape in corporate London. As such it seems unlikely that recordings will not be kept for 28/31 days in length which are pretty much standard. This seems something of a canard to my mind.

[Sorry missed the word not]

yeah i would imagine VHS isnt that common, especially for proper street CCTV cams - not so sure about shops and the likes.

 

[winjer]

Could someone please link to verification that it is LAW that officers have numbers on display.

There is none in England & Wales, it isn't LAW. (Different for viewers in Scotland)

 

[Wilf]

yeah i would imagine VHS isnt that common, especially for proper street CCTV cams - not so sure about shops and the likes.

Don't know much about the mechanics of cctv myself. However, I'd have assumed it was all digital now. Storage wise, I guess that means they can keep more of it on whichever server. also, even when deleted, you'd think there would be a greater chance it could be retrieved, if digital.

 

[butchersapron]

Wait tiill the charges come, and watch that one journo who forced this on them.

 

[winjer]

It doesn't appear in the Dress Code Policy document released under the Freedom of Information Act at http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/policies/dress_code_policy.pdf

If it exists, it would be the in Dress Code SOP (not the Policy) which they probably won't release under FOI because of the need to preserve operational matters, or similar weasel words.

 

[laptop]

Wait tiill the charges come, and watch that one journo who forced this on them.

Watch Duncan for what?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

with an apparent charge of manslaughter, what does this change in terms of reportage do you think?

 

[butchersapron]

Watch Duncan for what?

Was that the chap?

That bloke who broke the JCDM stuff ion ITV, i may be missing someting but...

 

[laptop]

If it exists, it would be the in Dress Code SOP (not the Policy) which they probably won't release under FOI because of the need to preserve operational matters, or similar weasel words.

Back to the point about why the Commissioner deliberately leaves them so much shuffle room.

Not only should the SOP be public, but there should be a public, statuory, requirement: if you're a police officer, you wear a number, and if you don't, you go to prison for 6 months and be fired and you are tried for any assaults you commit as a normal, civilian, criminal with previous (at least: that you didn't wear a number).

 

[Wilf]

with an apparent charge of manslaughter, what does this change in terms of reportage do you think?

Not sure when sub judice kicks in - from charging or first hearing, presume the former?

Long way from that of course, though the police might ultimately have to fall back on the "yes, we caused his death, but there's no way of knowing which of our 3 'contacts' did it". Incident 2 is my favourite, if he was batoned on the floor, but even incident 1 - being 'nudged' by the van, at midriff height, might come into the running. I suspect the hitter from incident 3 is hoping for something like this, along with media accounts of him being an alcoholic and this being an 'accidnet waiting to happen'.

 

[laptop]

Not sure when sub judice kicks in - from charging or first hearing, presume the former?

From when "proceedings are active". Which the police - or individual unauthorised police officers, who knows - interpret as "from well after charge" or "from the opening of the court case", when it suits them to feed highly prejudicial material about the one charged to the media.


I reckon they should be held to the same standard in this case.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

Nothing will happen as the internal bleeding will inconclusive and he will be let off.

Case close.

 

[q_w_e_r_t_y]

Police apparently work to an unofficial booklet called "Guide to Public Order Situations". Doesnt seem easy to find, maybe that's the idea. Be good to know a bit more about it, how often it is changed etc.

As I understand it the main reference point is the ACPO guide to keeping the peace

Available here
http://www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/Data/keeping_the_peace.pdf