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G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

From a relatively uninformed perpective I'd say it looks like the dogs are being used as weapons of intimidation and actual injury (you can see some of the injuries on Youtube if you have the stomach for it), rather than for chase/take-down of fleeing or armed suspects.

Are the Met taking lessons from Abu Graib now?
 
winjer said:
No, you were still wrong to post this

"Dr Patel was also involved in an incident where the police asked him to record a ‘death by natural causes’ "

which you still provide no source for. :rolleyes:
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Yes we have done the gurdian ill dig up a direct link if there is a need to repeat ourselfs, fucking hart attack, more like murder oh erm we are wrong he fell into The Police, they never attacked anyone on that day or the next each and evryone fell or asked to be beaten.
 
FabricLiveBaby! said:
Could you explain why it is so shocking from a dog handlers perspective?


I'm not a dog handler so it would be useful for us all to know what you see there that the rest of us can't.
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The dog is both a deterrent and a weapon. They are highly trained. Hours and hours and hours go into their training. You also have to remember that German Shepherds are herding dogs, the instinct is to herd and contain - and that attacking is when the herd is threatened rather than attacking the herd itself. So when they start attacking, it's because (a) the handler has lost control of the dog; or (b) the handler has instructed the dog to attack; and/or (c) 'the herd to be contained and protected' is the police rather than the crowd. Why were they even deployed in the first place? Further, even if there was a reason constructed as to their deployment, why were they allowed/instructed to attack?
 
Fruitloop said:
From a relatively uninformed perpective I'd say it looks like the dogs are being used as weapons of intimidation and actual injury (you can see some of the injuries on Youtube if you have the stomach for it), rather than for chase/take-down of fleeing or armed suspects.

Are the Met taking lessons from Abu Graib now?
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I was on a bus on my way home one May Day bank Holiday, it had kicked of where i was liveing, youth on the streets, filth in full riot gear, well you know how it gose of the bus with the youth, i had a police dog set upon me, just as we have seen here used as weapons of intimidation, i took the fuckers to court and won, offerd cash, no thanks that was the point, proveing the wrong of the attack was why i took out a private prosecution, it took a year but all who was beaten or nicked that night managed to prove there actions provoked the riot.
 
This is purely rumour and hearsay I suppose, but my brother works with someone who travels on the train with someone who works at the IPCC.

He has just told me that a couple of days ago, this guy from the IPCC said that they have no footage from Royal Exchange Building CCTV, as it is only kept for 10 days and the police told them there were no camera's and it was 14 days later that they discovered that there were camera's and tried to get the footage. Which no longer exists.

I don't know how reliable this is, what cameras are in the passageway, how long the footage is kept for, who these people are or anything else but I am very worried.
 
shaman75 said:
This is purely rumour and hearsay I suppose, but my brother works with someone who travels on the train with someone who works at the IPCC.

He has just told me that a couple of days ago, this guy from the IPCC said that they have no footage from Royal Exchange Building CCTV, as it is only kept for 10 days and the police told them there were no camera's and it was 14 days later that they discovered that there were camera's and tried to get the footage. Which no longer exists.

I don't know how reliable this is, what cameras are in the passageway, how long the footage is kept for, who these people are or anything else but I am very worried.
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No surprises there then.
 
shaman75 said:
my brother works with someone who travels on the train with someone who works at the IPCC.
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Now that's what I call hearsay :)

shaman75 said:
He has just told me that a couple of days ago, this guy from the IPCC said that they have no footage from Royal Exchange Building CCTV, as it is only kept for 10 days and the police told them there were no camera's and it was 14 days later that they discovered that there were camera's and tried to get the footage. Which no longer exists.
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Definitely worth chasing up, though.

Haven't they learned that the first thing to do in any such investigation is to slap a subpoena/warrant on all CCTV camera owners demanding production of all footage?

Except that at the start the investigators were the cops (CoLP), who owned the CCTV cameras.

Let's see: when did the IPCC take the investigation over from CoLP? 6 days in.

If there's no footage, we have a right to expect the head of the Chief Constable of the City of London on a platter.

BBC Timeline, BTW.
 
shaman75 said:
This is purely rumour and hearsay I suppose, but my brother works with someone who travels on the train with someone who works at the IPCC.

He has just told me that a couple of days ago, this guy from the IPCC said that they have no footage from Royal Exchange Building CCTV, as it is only kept for 10 days and the police told them there were no camera's and it was 14 days later that they discovered that there were camera's and tried to get the footage. Which no longer exists.

I don't know how reliable this is, what cameras are in the passageway, how long the footage is kept for, who these people are or anything else but I am very worried.
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sounds about right. Tis almost exactly what I wrote that I expected to be the case at the time that they announced they'd been mistaken about the cctv cameras, except I said it'd be 7 days they kept the footage for.

the police aren't stupid when it comes to cover ups.
 
laptop said:
If there's no footage, we have a right to expect the head of the Chief Constable of the City of London on a platter.
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Note to all 'interested parties' reading this - I feel sure that laptop is talking in purely figurative terms.
 
Right from the off, all the webcams were down.

CCTV, some public, some private. Big time lag. The qs re the public ones are obvious ... but what about the private ones? Were the owners visited?
 
free spirit said:
sounds about right. Tis almost exactly what I wrote that I expected to be the case at the time that they announced they'd been mistaken about the cctv cameras, except I said it'd be 7 days they kept the footage for.

the police aren't stupid when it comes to cover ups.
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Incidentally, iirc, most retailers keep the tapes for a month before using/overwriting them. 4 x 7 day cycle in strict rotational order.
 
DotCommunist said:
yep. That struck me as iffy on the wednesday.
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They always turn off public feeds from webcams when there's anything demo-like going on. If I'm late for a demo I look online for the "unavailable for operational reasons" cameras to find out where it is and where I should catch up with it :)

I assume that they record the images for themselves, though.

TfL currently list no traffic cams in the City. Is there a feed from Met cams?
 
Is the cops pet pathpologist going to be struck off now?

The full, filthy extent of their brutality and subseuqunet cover up is all coming out now.

If they do prosecute the cop in question I'd guess that his defence will be the briefing they were given on the day - which opens up a whole other can of beans. Like prosecutions for corpotate manslaughter.

It will be interesting to see how far justice is allowed to proceed given the implications for the police.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/17/ian-tomlinson-haemorrhage-doctor

Some emphasis on such a death from a fall being rare, but not impossible.

But remember the witness statement of Anna Brainthwaite.

There had been a situation where a small number of police officers had become outnumbered by protesters in Cornhill, and had retreated into the pedestrian street, Royal Exchange Buildings. It was like, anything could happen right now. Riot officers began to arrive and within minutes the police had regained control around the Threadneedle Street end where I went to stand.

At this point there were probably about 20 officers - some dog handlers, some riot officers. And members of the public - city workers, people watching - were being stopped around the traffic lights although some were being allowed to walk through the pedestrian street that was now relatively clear, with a few protesters still standing around but certainly not a crowd.

The dog handlers began to sweep through the pedestrian street to start forming a police line. A dog barked and I saw one protester was on the floor who managed to get up. That's what drew my attention to that spot. It was then that I noticed Ian Tomlinson, who was walking from Threadneadle Street direction, walking towards Cornhill Street. A riot police officer had already grabbed him and was pushing him.

It wasn't just pushing him - he'd rushed him. He went to the floor and he did actually roll. That was quite noticeable. It was the force of the impact. He bounced on the floor. It was a very forceful knocking-down from behind. The officer hit him twice with a baton when he was lying on the floor.

So it wasn't just that the officer had pushed him - it became an assault. And then the officer picked him up from the back, continued to walk or charge with him, and threw him. He was running and stumbling. He didn't turn and confront the officer or anything like that.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/g20-ian-tomlinson-death-witnesses
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The earlier attack. You'd have thought that being struck with a baton twice would be much more likely to cause such injuries than a 'fall'.
 
Some bod was on the news just now, talking about how an enlarged liver when struck by his arm in the fall, or even pressured by the rescuss guys when doing the heart pump thing, could cause abdominal bleeding.

I wonder what ITV news could be insinuating here? Large liver eh? we know Mr. Tomlinson had a drink habit.


Obfuscation and smearing as usual from ITV 'news', the rolling propaganda twats
 
DotCommunist said:
Some bod was on the news just now, talking about how an enlarged liver when struck by his arm in the fall, or even pressured by the rescuss guys when doing the heart pump thing, could cause abdominal bleeding.

I wonder what ITV news could be insinuating here? Large liver eh? we know Mr. Tomlinson had a drink habit.


Obfuscation and smearing as usual from ITV 'news', the rolling propaganda twats
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Bollocks and conspiraloonery. "Some bod" was a top vascular surgeon. I've just spoken to him.
 
nick h. said:
Bollocks and conspiraloonery. "Some bod" was a top vascular surgeon. I've just spoken to him.
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Yes I didn't catch his credentials, but I found the concentration on what could happen to an enlarged liver slightly suspicious-I don't put that on him, he was fairly balanced and used plenty of 'coulds' and 'perhaps'. But I think he was primed with the leading questions.
 
Here's his site:http://www.jscurr.com/

What he said doesn't give the alleged manslaughterer any comfort. Katy Derham's questions seemed legitimate to me. I would have liked more questions about the shortcomings of the police medics but Mr Scurr reckons they made no difference.
 
I put this blame squarely on the Cops in charged, they over egged the story, tried to rewrite the story, they went way over the top in some parts of the policing as soon after Ian Tomlinson died and and it continued the next day.

It most certainly been ordered by people high in the management of government to suppress this demo with "tough" policing, they talked tough policing and they didn't know when to stop.

Now one copper taking the flak for all this and it was all propaganda for the benefit of the Government which backfired badly.

The sad thing is even now Police/Government are trying everything to spin the story long after the event has past.
 
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