G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[Callie]

I'm not convinced there would have been orders to biff people or set dogs on them. The officers at the front line make the decision as to what action they can get away with. Its the fact that they obviously haven't been detered from such action that is dodgy. What are the guidelines? What does the training involve? Have the front line officers HAD training?

How the fuck can they ever justify pushing Mr Tomlinson so hard he hits the deck when he is walking away, in the direction they want (presumably) with his hands in his pockets.

They will though, I'm sure of it.

 

[shaman75]

srs post: just watched that vid: wtf? first they drag some guy away who doesn't appear to be doing anything, then shaggy gets attacked by the dog. again, don't quite know what he'd been doing, but the response of the dog handler doesn't seem very proportionate regardless!

In that video
He looks like he is complaining about the injury and trying to show them his arm.

 

[cesare]

I'm not convinced there would have been orders to biff people or set dogs on them. The officers at the front line make the decision as to what action they can get away with. Its the fact that they obviously haven't been detered from such action that is dodgy. What are the guidelines? What does the training involve? Have the front line officers HAD training?

How the fuck can they ever justify pushing Mr Tomlinson so hard he hits the deck when he is walking away, in the direction they want (presumably) with his hands in his pockets.

They will though, I'm sure of it.

All just happenchance? Dogs arrive out of nowhere? All just an unlucky set of coincidences?

 

[Darios]

The more that is revealed in this sorry saga, the more it seems like a real life retelling of 'Red Riding'.....

 

[shaman75]

I'm pretty much convinced that the police were under no illusion that they had to come down hard on this protest as it was feared that it might kick off wider civil unrest, something I imagine the authorities fear more than a terrorist attack in the current economic climate.

 

[Callie]

All just happenchance? Dogs arrive out of nowhere? All just an unlucky set of coincidences?

The dogs would have been there for the purpose of crowd control, i imagine.

I can't really say what their orders/briefing would have entailed.

I certainly agree that letting dogs get very close to protesters/other member of the public was irresponsible, especially letting them bite without due cause, which is what most the clips I have seen seem to show.

I do think there has been a huge amount of hype in the media with regards to the 'summer of rage', again I have no idea what would have gone on in the stations (Or where ever the hell it is the poolice to their briefings for such events) but that may have been an element.

I'm not convinced that there would have ever been a specific guidance to 'come down hard' on protesters. I wasn't there during the protests (so disregard my opinions if you wish) but I'm not sure the police individually acted very differently to how they have at other protests? Thats not to say that different methods werent actioned.

I know nothing though!

 

[shaman75]

Twitter from the Guardian (page 6)

#
Riot officer: "no-one sees us as human. I've got a daughter, a wife. Today's been dangerous for me"
by paul__lewis at 4/1/2009 9:27:47 PM01 April 2009 22:27:47
#
Riot officer cont; "we knew it would it was coming. It would kick-off. We've been preparing for months."
by paul__lewis at 4/1/2009 9:29:47 PM01 April 2009 22:29:47
#
Riot officer cont 2; "we've been told to turf them out. They're a nuisance. I'm just doing what I'm told"
by paul__lewis at 4/1/2009 9:31:28 PM01 April 2009 22:31:28

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/01/g20-london-summit-twitter

 

[nick h.]

Tbf, the dogs are low risk because they are trained to just grab your forearm. I'd rather have that than many of the alternatives e.g. a baton on the head, a shield in the face, a kick in the nuts or being pushed to the ground.

 

[shaman75]

I don't think I could express a preference, but dog bites look pretty nasty.

http://tr.youtube.com/watch?v=DLL0Vp6BAgs

 

[lopsidedbunny]

All just happenchance? Dogs arrive out of nowhere? All just an unlucky set of coincidences?

I saw them come in via the the police lines via the RSB bank and one was biting the hands of the hander.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I don't think I could express a preference, but dog bites look pretty nasty.

http://tr.youtube.com/watch?v=DLL0Vp6BAgs

ekk

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

I'm not convinced there would have been orders to biff people or set dogs on them. The officers at the front line make the decision as to what action they can get away with. Its the fact that they obviously haven't been detered from such action that is dodgy. What are the guidelines? What does the training involve? Have the front line officers HAD training?

Bold bit = my experience.

I work with a lovely girl, she used to go out with a filth, she texted him on the morning of 1st April, "Be careful", the reply, "Yeah, fight, fight, fight!"

 

[nick h.]

Fuck me, I so hope that's not real.

 

[winjer]

Tbf, the dogs are low risk because they are trained to just grab your forearm. I'd rather have that than many of the alternatives e.g. a baton on the head, a shield in the face, a kick in the nuts or being pushed to the ground.

I hate to spoil your idyll, but it wasn't the arm that a police dog tried to bite off a press photographer at a Smash EDO demo last autumn.

 

[ymu]

Fuck me, I so hope that's not real.

Did you not see the video of the dog attack? It's very real.

 

[Ae589]

Did you not see the video of the dog attack? It's very real.

Hope he gets a Darwin awards 'almost'.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Hope he gets a Darwin awards 'almost'.

What society do you want to live in whereby those who taunt the police are mutilated?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Could someone please link to verification that it is LAW that officers have numbers on display. Im phoning Any Anwers tomorrow and want to be double sure on the point before I accuse the police of being top down criminals. Thanks

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It ain't law.

On Wednesday the top pig said they MUST show their numbers,

On Thursday a cop was filmed in Parliament Sq without his numbers.

Obey the rules, yeah?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It ain't law.

On Wednesday the top pig said they MUST show their numbers,

On Thursday a cop was filmed in Parliament Sq without his numbers.

Obey the rules, yeah?

thanks for that. Is it just usual expected practice? Do you know the specific codes? (dont lose sleep if you dont)

 

[laptop]

thanks for that. Is it just usual expected practice? Do you know the specific codes? (dont lose sleep if you dont)

The safe quote is that the Commissioner has said they must.

If asked, and if you agree, you could add that it ought to be the law, not just an order.

MET commissioner Sir Paul Stephenson was told today he must discipline officers who have defied orders to identify themselves.

Boris Johnson's deputy mayor Kit Malthouse called for those who fail to wear their shoulder numbers to face disciplinary action as the Standard revealed a constable with his identity number concealed.

The officer, a constable trained in first aid, was directly defying Sir Paul's order that they should be worn at all times after riot police at the G20 protests hid their badges.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...uld+be+punished+for+covering+up+ID/article.do

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The safe quote is that the Commissioner has said they must.

If asked, and if you agree, you could add that it ought to be the law, not just an order.

Thanks.

 

[butchersapron]

Interesting in itself that we can't easily find out.

I wonder what other publically availible info is impossible to access?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

The safe quote is that the Commissioner has said they must.

If asked, and if you agree, you could add that it ought to be the law, not just an order.

Might even mention why they feel the need to obscure their identity in the first place, if they're doing nothing wrong i.e. the id card arguments in a nutshell?

 

[Callie]

Surely if the police service is anything like anywhere else (ime) then stuff like that (display our id numbers) is in writing somewhere, it actually ISN'T good enough for it to be word of mouth or just the done (or not done) thing. Procedure...standard operating procedures/policy with regard to uniform??

 

[laptop]

Might even mention why they feel the need to obscure their identity in the first place, if they're doing nothing wrong i.e. the id card arguments in a nutshell?

Aye - if they're law-abiding what do they have to hide?




Someone reported somewhere here that that was a newspaper headline at some point today - Standard? - but didn't find it on news.google.co.uk

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Aye - if they're law-abiding what do they have to hide?




Someone reported somewhere here that that was a newspaper headline at some point today - Standard? - but didn't find it on news.google.co.uk

oh shit, i've turned into a Daily Standard headline



*wanders off looking for work at the torygraph*

 

[butchersapron]

I know a lot of people who wrote letters to their MPs durimg the miners strike asking why this was allowed to happen, why they were allowed to cover their ID numbers. The answer was inevitably that they weren't. But on the ground in force they knew they could and they did. It's not like they'e just been alerted to it. Immediate digital proof changes the whole game though.

 

[butchersapron]

Surely if the police service is anything like anywhere else (ime) then stuff like that (display our id numbers) is in writing somewhere, it actually ISN'T good enough for it to be word of mouth or just the done (or not done) thing. Procedure...standard operating procedures/policy with regard to uniform??

It's not like anywhere esle though callie.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The answer was inevitably that they weren't.

Still could do with clarification at what level this is, some kind of code or term of employment?