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G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

editor said:
Little by little the police lies are coming unstuck.
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they certainly are - and quite rapidly as well to my own surprise

you are right - this could prove very significent

(although one side of me thinks cesare may well be proven right...)
 
STFC said:
Or two differing opinions, both of which are provisional at this stage.

Talk about jumping to conclusions...
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The first one seems to come from somebody who has a shakey relationship with the rest of his profession and has a history of reporting suspicious deaths in which police officers were implicated as heart attacks. But I'm sure that's definately a coincidence.
 
Patel and whoever orchestrated this clusterfuck at the Met should should go on a corruption trial for this shit. certainly Patel should be suspended for gross incompetence/lying
 
dennisr said:
they certainly are - and quite rapidly as well to my own surprise

you are right - this could prove very significent

(although one side of me thinks cesare may well be proven right...)
Click to expand...

I wish I was more confident. But I've seen nothing in my lifetime to indicate that policing and policing of policing is improving - the reverse. The death of one man isn't going to halt that decline. The officer concerned will be hung out to dry and they'll move swiftly on :(
 
Its interesting that they've actually interviewed him under caution (for manslaughter), whilst the coroner is emphasising 'tests still to be done, preliminary findings etc. Either the coroner is really very certain about the cause of death (and has fond something like baton marks/bruising in relevant areas) or they are worried that the family wouldn't stay quiet on the findings any longer. They have had the findings for a week, according to the reports linked by others.
 
ymu said:
It looks a lot like it is. It's hard to tell Alsatians apart, but in the Tomlinson video there is one that has a lot of lighter brown fur towards the front, two with a lot on their bellies (one more than the other) and one that is all black. That's consistent with the dogs seen in the 3rd video here. The number of dogs and mix of police uniforms - blue flashes, no hi-vis, etc - are similar also.

At 52 seconds in the Tomlinson assault video (4th one down), there's a copper with a dog that both match the picture above (from the dog attack).
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Several of the dog handlers in the 'dog attack' video are also clearly visible in the 'American tourist' video of the Tomlinson assault.

Looking at the dog attack video, it would appear that the TSG officer who assaulted Ian Tomlinson was involved in that incident too:

3449677625_38a02fe936_o.jpg


3449677423_cfeb53fc30_o.jpg


After this moment, the officer exchanges looks (and possibly words) with the blue-flashed hi-vis jacket-wearing officers to right of screen (suspected FIT cops), before moving off into the cluster of cops around the corner of Threadneedle Street and Royal Exchange Buildings. Some of those officers head down Royal Exchange Buildings in the direction of Cornhill, before the videographer gets distracted by the big build up of riot police to his/her left, who then charge round the corner into Royal Exchange Avenue.

The general make-up of the group heading down Royal Exchange Building (as opposed to the surge into Royal Exchange Avenue) appears to match up with the beginning of the 'American tourist' video - some riot police with helmets and shields, the balaclava'd up shieldless left-handed officer, suspected FIT cops and dog handlers.

NB: The times are approximate. The YouTube uploader of the 'dog attack' video states that they are unaware of whether the 7:16 timestamp refers to the beginning or end of the film. The moment pictured comes 1′32″ into the video.
 
4thwrite said:
Its interesting that they've actually interviewed him under caution (for manslaughter), whilst the coroner is emphasising 'tests still to be done, preliminary findings etc. Either the coroner is really very certain about the cause of death (and has fond something like baton marks/bruising in relevant areas) or they are worried that the family wouldn't stay quiet on the findings any longer. They have had the findings for a week, according to the reports linked by others.
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Yes, it's intriguing.
 
cesare said:
I wish I was more confident. But I've seen nothing in my lifetime to indicate that policing and policing of policing is improving - the reverse. The death of one man isn't going to halt that decline. The officer concerned will be hung out to dry and they'll move swiftly on :(
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It's good to be cynical, but this one's going to be harder for the cops to shake off.

When the front page of right wing rags like the Evening Standard run with a large picture of a number-less cop asking, "WHAT HAS HE GOT TO HIDE?" it's a healthy sign that this has become a major issue.

I really can't imagine many cops considering turning up to high profile protests with their numbers covered up any more, and if they do, they'll be photographed to fuck.
 
editor said:
It's good to be cynical, but this one's going to be harder for the cops to shake off.

When the front page of right wing rags like the Evening Standard run with a large picture of a number-less cop asking, "WHAT HAS HE GOT TO HIDE?" it's a healthy sign that this has become a major issue.

I really can't imagine many cops considering turning up to high profile protests with their numbers covered up any more, and if they do, they'll be photographed to fuck.
Click to expand...




I hope that you are right, this could actually be something of a turning point. I have no idea why police have been allowed to fight in complete anonymity anyway, i used to think that they were obliged to be identifiable.
 
Probably the blow to the upper body that did it. Caused a massive internal bleed and the CPR wouldn't have saved him IMO if he'd walked off for a while, the damage would have been done. Poor bloke.
 
cesare said:
I wish I was more confident. But I've seen nothing in my lifetime to indicate that policing and policing of policing is improving - the reverse. The death of one man isn't going to halt that decline. The officer concerned will be hung out to dry and they'll move swiftly on :(
Click to expand...

If one considers that the 'dog attack' incident to the north end of Royal Exchange Buildings and the Tomlinson assault to the south are connected by a number of police personnel and a short period of time (ie that some of those at the 'dog attack' then dash down the path to the location where Ian Tomlinson is then assaulted, all in a short space of time), then it would appear that the police officer who actually batons and pushes Mr Tomlinson talks to or takes some form of instruction from one or more police officers in the blue flashed hi-vis jackets before moving off from the 'dog attack' incident - as do other officers in the group we see in the assault footage. This might indicate, we may speculate, some level of command or control.

(This is, I note again, only speculation. Perhaps there were a number of left-handed baton-wielding riot cops with no epaulettes, high cut hi-vis jackets, balaclavas, trousers tucked into their boots, Nato helmets and no shields running around the Royal Exchange area of London between 7:16 and 7:20pm on the 1st of April. Hopefully they will all be making formal statements to account for their own actions and to bear witness to what they saw.)

As the evidence is assembled and analysed it may well be possible to piece together not just a chain of events, but the reasoning behind it, right down to who said what to whom at what point.

Before I forget: A LibDem MP (IIRC) raised an interesting point recently, suggesting that it appeared that the police were operating a 'designated hitter' system during the G20 protests.
 
DC - you should send your timeline/analysis to the family solicitors. Admittedly they've probably been inundated by a pile of shite from 9/11 loons and like, but eventually they will wade through all that and get to the useful stuff.
 
editor said:
It's good to be cynical, but this one's going to be harder for the cops to shake off.

When the front page of right wing rags like the Evening Standard run with a large picture of a number-less cop asking, "WHAT HAS HE GOT TO HIDE?" it's a healthy sign that this has become a major issue.

I really can't imagine many cops considering turning up to high profile protests with their numbers covered up any more, and if they do, they'll be photographed to fuck.
Click to expand...

agreed and now this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8004222.stm, we was wrong acording to some to post this

The pathologist who gave the initial ‘heart attack’ findings in relation to the death of Ian Tomlinson has a history of professional misconduct. Dr Freddy Patel was once condemned by the General Medical Council for releasing information about a man who had died in police custody. Roger Sylvester, a 30-year-old black man died under suspicious circumstances whilst in police custody and Dr Patel released medical evidence that suggested Mr Sylvester was a crack addict - a suggestion that was later refuted in court.

Dr Patel was also involved in an incident where the police asked him to record a ‘death by natural causes’ verdict for a woman found dead in a flat even when the evidence was, at best, inconclusive. The man who lived at the flat where the woman’s body was found went on to kill two other people.

Dr Patel’s competence as a pathologist has also come into question in less sinister, but equally as tragic, cases. Which may be why the Met and the Home Office favour him - shit sticks and all that.

Ian Tomlinson’s case should have been referred to the Forensic Pathology Services, not Dr Patel. The Met knows this and we now know why the Met were covering their tracks.

The original post mortem was released suspiciously early because it was completely bogus. The Met have used a pathologist that is in their pocket to cover up another death. This time their victim was not hidden away in a cell, he was walking down a public street surrounded by cameras.

Their guilt - in both the death of Ian Tomlinson and their attempts to cover up a murder - is plain for all to see.

Perverting the Course of Justice carries a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
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http://projectsheffield.wordpress.c...t-guilty-of-perverting-the-course-of-justice/
 
So the impression I'm left with is that the force, rather than hanging this officer out to dry, did everything they could to get a convenient post mortem conclusion and get the body buried/ cremated as fast as possible.

Why are the police even responsible for deciding where post-mortems are done or who does them?

Apologies if i have my facts wrong, but the impression i got is that there was surprise that the post-mortem was done by Mr Fixit in the first place.
 
editor said:
It's good to be cynical, but this one's going to be harder for the cops to shake off.

When the front page of right wing rags like the Evening Standard run with a large picture of a number-less cop asking, "WHAT HAS HE GOT TO HIDE?" it's a healthy sign that this has become a major issue.

I really can't imagine many cops considering turning up to high profile protests with their numbers covered up any more, and if they do, they'll be photographed to fuck.
Click to expand...


I hope you're right. A lot will depend on it sinking into Joe Public's awareness together with correlating it with previous deaths, previous policing whitewashes e.g. Miners strike, Poll Tax, Wapping, Hillsborough (and the role of the Met in overall trends of policing across the country), stop and search, sniffer dogs at tube stations, dog handling generally, photographing police, ID cards, etc etc.
 
editor said:
I really can't imagine many cops considering turning up to high profile protests with their numbers covered up any more, and if they do, they'll be photographed to fuck.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the said these lessons had been learned after the minners strike, the beanfield, the poll tax the CJB riots too... all of which were largley created or exasserabted by the police actions all of which received a loud tut for having their numbers removed or covered...

but loud tut's don't stop it happening again...

regardless of media hyperbole...
 
The manslaughter wont stick, especially as conveniently this guy was an alkie who often have bad stomachs due to alchol and lifestyle damage.
 
DaveCinzano said:
If one considers that the 'dog attack' incident to the north end of Royal Exchange Buildings and the Tomlinson assault to the south are connected by a number of police personnel and a short period of time (ie that some of those at the 'dog attack' then dash down the path to the location where Ian Tomlinson is then assaulted, all in a short space of time), then it would appear that the police officer who actually batons and pushes Mr Tomlinson talks to or takes some form of instruction from one or more police officers in the blue flashed hi-vis jackets before moving off from the 'dog attack' incident - as do other officers in the group we see in the assault footage. This might indicate, we may speculate, some level of command or control.

(This is, I note again, only speculation. Perhaps there were a number of left-handed baton-wielding riot cops with no epaulettes, high cut hi-vis jackets, balaclavas, trousers tucked into their boots, Nato helmets and no shields running around the Royal Exchange area of London between 7:16 and 7:20pm on the 1st of April. Hopefully they will all be making formal statements to account for their own actions and to bear witness to what they saw.)

As the evidence is assembled and analysed it may well be possible to piece together not just a chain of events, but the reasoning behind it, right down to who said what to whom at what point.

Before I forget: A LibDem MP (IIRC) raised an interesting point recently, suggesting that it appeared that the police were operating a 'designated hitter' system during the G20 protests.
Click to expand...

I've been more than a little interested in the role of the dog handlers myself, German Shepherd security dog handling being in the family background an all (not OB I hasten to add). Whilst I haven't been looking at it from a chain of events pov, I've been more shocked at this aspect than the kettling and batoning.
 
cesare said:
I've been more than a little interested in the role of the dog handlers myself, German Shepherd security dog handling being in the family background an all (not OB I hasten to add). Whilst I haven't been looking at it from a chain of events pov, I've been more shocked at this aspect than the kettling and batoning.
Click to expand...

Could you explain why it is so shocking from a dog handlers perspective?


I'm not a dog handler so it would be useful for us all to know what you see there that the rest of us can't.
 
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