G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP
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Callie
Pivoting
When you say witnesses do you mean the policepersons involved? Cos I'm not sure they saw his face.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
I actually meant the three people mentioned in the initial Guardian report of (iirc) Friday. I dont know whether the IPCC will treat those officers who Tomlinson was speaking to (ie the gaggle with the shields stood there after he was pushed over) as witnesses, tbh.
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
It's potentially helpful if they're doing a new post-mortem in the light of it, especially if a full sized view and slo-mo shows where the strike went in.
If it went to the inside of the thigh - well, a whole bunch of martial arts identify the femoral nerve/vein/artery area as a potentially lethal 'cavity' which when struck can lead to heart failure for medically comprehensible reasons (if I recall right something to do with a high-amplitude transient spike in blood pressure) as well as mystic acupuncture gobbledegook ones.
I've only ever seen it knock people out, e.g. after a hard kick lands there, but the classical sources are pretty unanimous that it's potentially lethal.
well red
Ruder Than You
It's very clear in the C4 footage that the cops that everyone was suggesting were FIT on here earlier are in fact senior officers who stand right next to the assault, watch it happen and ...do nothing. Exactly as you would expect them to behave. Wonder if they are shitting themselves yet?
claphamboy
The wheels on the bus go round and round....
Came forward of his own free will?
Or got pushed forward*, due to the hopless situation the cops are in?
I guess option 2.
ETA: * no pun was intended
Or got pushed forward*, due to the hopless situation the cops are in?
I guess option 2.
ETA: * no pun was intended
Bakunin
I am Noodle's bitch.
It is if you do it in the right way, yes.
Certain martial arts strikes (such as striking the celiac plexus using your fingertips, for instance, the Chinese martial arts refer to fingertips strikes as Bil Jee or 'art of thrusting fingers') can cause a massive rush of blood through to the heart which, if powerful enough, is sufficient to burst the aortic valve and bring a quick death.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Bingo - senior officers who it seems might not have come forward even at this late date, who were talked to by the 'hitter' at the time - presumably asking about what had just taken place.
The thought that some of them will have been working together for a week concocting stories, covering their own backs e.t.c. disturbs me. If the man has come forward in the last hour then what has happened for him to do so now? His colleagues refusing to protect him, assurances from his superiors that he will be looked after e.t.c.? All speculation but not nice thoughts.
winjer
holocene death beat
They are FIT, what makes you think they are senior?
Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Yep. This is a key point to bear in mind when they start spinning this. The only difference between this animal and thousands of his fellow officers is that he was unlucky enough to kill one of the people he assaulted and to have it caught on video that couldn't be covered up.
electrogirl
dignity is overrated
It is, I've just been reading the thread rather than posting but I actually cried when I first saw the footage and then again on the Channel 4 news.
I don't understand how this policeman wil ever get away with it. Brian Paddick was just suggesting there might be reasoning for that kind of behaviour, I don't see how that can ever be.
Kaka Tim
Half Arsed and Slapdash till I Die
Intersting testimony from the medical student who tended to Ian Tomlinson on channel 4 news.
She said he was concious, and said several times that he was ok and not in pain, he then lost conciousness (and subsequntly died). Im not a doctor - but that does not sound like a heart attack - it sounds more like internal bleeding - brain hemorage? spleen? - be interesting to see what the second post mortem turns up - and pretty worrying (in terms scope of police interference) if the first one turns out to be bullshit.
If he did die from something like a brain hemorage casued by a blow to the head (i.e his head striking the pavement) as a direcet result of teh assult from the copper - then wouldn't that be murder?
She said he was concious, and said several times that he was ok and not in pain, he then lost conciousness (and subsequntly died). Im not a doctor - but that does not sound like a heart attack - it sounds more like internal bleeding - brain hemorage? spleen? - be interesting to see what the second post mortem turns up - and pretty worrying (in terms scope of police interference) if the first one turns out to be bullshit.
If he did die from something like a brain hemorage casued by a blow to the head (i.e his head striking the pavement) as a direcet result of teh assult from the copper - then wouldn't that be murder?
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Just seen ch 4 news. Though they do show the film of the hitter, they don't mention the earlier incident when Ian Tomlinson was hit on the head and/or knocked to the ground (according to more than one witness)*. IIRC they did have this in the earlier bulletin. Wonder if that's just their lawyers urging more caution on that part of the story?
Unless its at the end, I turned off 10 minutes ago
Unless its at the end, I turned off 10 minutes ago
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
It could be - If I remember my OST, the blow you are trained to deliver to that area is to aim for the middle of the thigh facing you (ie: the "target" is always stood ahead of you, or slightly to one side, or walking towards you) and to leave the baton on the leg for a moment (ie: not flick it off as soon as it hits).
Though as, according to the statement just on News24, the officer has come forward (along with 3/4 of his colleagues), perhaps for me to continue offering personal opinions on this thread about the incident is no longer appropriate.
electrogirl
dignity is overrated
Yeah I thought that sounded odd, said he smiling aswell, you're in pain if you having a heart attack aren't you?
maomao
普費斯
Why? Are you a police spokesperson or are you closing ranks now?
maomao
普費斯
Did any of the official statements say 'cardiac arrest' or just 'natural causes'?
electrogirl
dignity is overrated
All I've ever head is that he 'died of a heart attack minutes later'
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
*Not a lawyer disclaimer*
Only if there was intent to kill, or intent to commit GBH. Otherwise it's manslaughter.
Wilf
Slouching towards Billingham
Either way, the Met will be very keen to get hold of Ian Tomlinson's medical records. Expect leaks and smears that he had a drink/drug problem, or some condition that put him 'at risk' of heart failure.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
Neither. The IPCC have (admittedly managing COLP's investigation in the first place) been investigating this, and will now investigate this officers conduct, and probably the conduct of those with him. That is what should happen, followed by a criminal trial for whatever offence is appropriate for whichever officers, and an inquest.
maomao
普費斯
And you see the matter as concluded or you feel that giving opinions on a bulletin board read by a couple of hundred people might prejudice the trial?
ska invita
back on the other side
Seriously? What does that mean? An investigation? An enquiry? What's Hutton up to these days?
The process will proceed, boxes will be ticked, many fine words may or may not be said and no-one will be charged. All in a very serious and concerned manner I guess...but hardly taken seriously in that anyone might get in trouble or that police procedure will change.
*yawn. waste of time.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
That is what should happen though. I dont see the matter as concluded - it wont be until the inquest - but personally I would let the IPCC investigation run its course. Thats my view - what you do is up to you, and after all many more of you have been more right than I was on this.
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