G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[xes]

edit to add try this thread?

That's the same thread

 

[Pot-Bellied Pig]

I wouldn't disagree with anything that Sonny61 wrote about what might happen in the future.

However like in any criminal case it is the right of the defence to present the case within the rules. It applies to any case and is the core of British law.

If the evidence is there then the truth will out. Courts of law and jury's are very good at this.

But Sonny is right...one push does not make a case. There is a whole books of law devoted to cause and effect and therefore you have to let the process run its' course.

Still its' hard to justify the CCTV footage and whether its' a criminal offence or not it still does the police no good at all in that light.

 

[Pot-Bellied Pig]

This is why anyone concerned with a fair legal system should campaign for the CPS to be abolished. Our charging standard, based on subjective and onerous CPS "tests", is both excessive and capricious. A replacement prosecution service tasked with trying every prima facie case brought before it might be justified, but I would prefer returning power to the accuser, who is currently disenfranchised. If a prima facie cases exists, and the accuser wants to prosecute, a jury should decide.

None of this is pre-judging the evidence in the Tomlinson case.

Wouldn't work. Would like to see the system of an examining magistrate as in some countries where the police are able to work under an independent and constant review and let the CPS prosecute those cases which have been reviewed first and meet the standard. We need to get the CPS away from the figures game where they look at the way public money is spent before they look at the victims needs.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

I wouldn't disagree with anything that Sonny61 wrote about what might happen in the future.

However like in any criminal case it is the right of the defence to present the case within the rules. It applies to any case and is the core of British law.

If the evidence is there then the truth will out. Courts of law and jury's are very good at this.

But Sonny is right...one push does not make a case. There is a whole books of law devoted to cause and effect and therefore you have to let the process run its' course.

Still its' hard to justify the CCTV footage and whether its' a criminal offence or not it still does the police no good at all in that light.

Apart from the fact that he doesn't countenance the possibility of a GBH or ABH charge being lodged instead of manslaughter, and on the video evidence available i would say that these charges have much more chance of succeeding, and I would say that much of what sonny writes was, and is, utter nonsense tbf.

The policeman who pushed him, was following his training. It's bleeding obvious they were telling him to move. Where is the footage of him being hit with a baton?

 

[DM Andy]

The problem some on here forget, the police are just like anyone else, they get fed up being abused , pushed around, things thrown at them, sometimes assaulted, or people cheering when a police officer is hurt, and they react.

So if I had a bad day at work I'm allowed to take it out on any passer-by I might encounter on my way home? I don't think it works like that.

It's part of a police officer's job to maintain his or her professionalism even when people don't like them. Anyone who cannot do that should not be trusted with the authority a police officer has. This thug's actions have made things more difficult for every officer in the country.

 

[lopsidedbunny]

G20 death: Ian Tomlinson's last movements
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson

I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business, he has live and worked in London for over ten years and worked all over London as I've seen him working at the Embankment Tube Station what's more he would had known where the protest was as he was selling newspapers, if he wanted to go home then he of all would had know a better way around the police cordon. It's his wife that insist that "he was walking home". I would rather get to the truth of the matter than a half bake story.

 

[Azrael]

Wouldn't work.

It did work for several centuries, albeit with its own flaws. I don't see why we need a prosecution service at all; it creates yet another tier of bureaucracy, and undermines the ancient idea that "police are citizens, and citizens are the police". A Director of Public Prosecutions for serious cases is sensible, but in others, why couldn't the police or other accusers prosecute as they once did?

If accusers could prosecute without interference from the state, it would dispel much of the frustration felt by victims of crime, and prevent cries of "cover-up" in cases like this. (Not saying they're justified, but the perception often exists.)

As for investigative magistrates, the common law had them once, but got rid of them in the mid-19th century because it's a near-impossible job.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

At the very least this should mean that police should visibly wear their numbers.

 

[asbestos]

That cop looks female to me.

(not read the whole thread so maybe this is already a discussion point.)

 

[e19896]

So, are these FIT officers? There are several more milling about in the Ian Tomlinson assault video, but it’s a bit too choppy to see much on the YouTube version.

Commenter Ed on Ian Bone’s blog has suggested that Stephen Discombe CO2558 might be present.

Any thoughts?

 

[brew]

I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business...

So? Even if that's true (seriously, who knows?), taking an interest in a protest is hardly provocation. Protests don't take place in a vacuum.

 

[Barking_Mad]

G20 death: Ian Tomlinson's last movements
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson

I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business, he has live and worked in London for over ten years and worked all over London as I've seen him working at the Embankment Tube Station what's more he would had known where the protest was as he was selling newspapers, if he wanted to go home then he of all would had know a better way around the police cordon. It's his wife that insist that "he was walking home". I would rather get to the truth of the matter than a half bake story.

Doesn't matter why he was there, it does matter how he was treated.

Diversion. 0/10

 

[xes]

no, asbestos, you'r the fisrt to bring that one up i reckon. Still doesn't make a difference. Manslaughter is manslaughter.

 

[Brother Mouzone]

G20 death: Ian Tomlinson's last movements
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson

I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business, he has live and worked in London for over ten years and worked all over London as I've seen him working at the Embankment Tube Station what's more he would had known where the protest was as he was selling newspapers, if he wanted to go home then he of all would had know a better way around the police cordon. It's his wife that insist that "he was walking home". I would rather get to the truth of the matter than a half bake story.

What fucking difference does that make?

As far as I'm aware it's not a crime (yet) to be interested in a protest or to choose a different route on the way home.

 

[danny la rouge]

I don't buy this "walking home" business

It doesn't matter where he was walking; he didn't deserve to be hit on the back of his legs with a baton, and shoved onto the ground from behind.

He was "going about his lawful business".

 

[lopsidedbunny]

I too was walking home too. Sigh!* of course it make no differences.

Diversion. 0/10

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

And in answer to all those claiming that it wasn't the cops trying to cover up anything after Mr Tomlinson's death, these words from the Guardian make for some powerful rebuttal:

The Guardian has gathered statements from 15 witnesses who saw Tomlinson to piece together a forensic reconstruction his movements. This directly contradicts the official version of events put out by police in the aftermath of Tomlinson's death. The witnesses accuse police of lashing at protesters and bystanders alike, attacking them with batons, shields and dogs. Officers are alleged to have attacked Tomlinson twice; both times from behind and as he was walking away. Eight witnesses produced photographic evidence, time- and date-stamped, that corroborates their version of events. Three said they saw Tomlinson being assaulted by riot police. grauniad

 

[e19896]

G20 death: Ian Tomlinson's last movements
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2009/apr/08/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson

I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business, he has live and worked in London for over ten years and worked all over London as I've seen him working at the Embankment Tube Station what's more he would had known where the protest was as he was selling newspapers, if he wanted to go home then he of all would had know a better way around the police cordon. It's his wife that insist that "he was walking home". I would rather get to the truth of the matter than a half bake story.

So from what you say, he was rubbernecking, was well known could this mean by the murdering scum the police? you see this dose not add up at all..

Lets say he was looking for a beter way home he found himself in the protest, at that time the murdering scum of the police was makeing shure those at The Bank was not getting to climate camp, he was in the wrong place wrong time, and the police attacked him, that in my mind lead to his death, this is murder and as said if it was the other way round people would be charged, now we go through this bullshit, and no doubt the murdering scum walk away from there actions.

 

[xes]

next time the police give someone a few slaps infront of alot of people, this should happen.

 

[Barking_Mad]

I too was walking home too. Sigh!* of course it make no differences.

Diversion. 0/10

What on earth are you babbling on about?

 

[Garcia Lorca]

next time the police give someone a few slaps infront of alot of people, this should happen.

 

[asbestos]

no, asbestos, you'r the fisrt to bring that one up i reckon. Still doesn't make a difference. Manslaughter is manslaughter.

Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't make a difference whatsoever.

As you say manslaughter is manslaughter.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

next time the police give someone a few slaps infront of alot of people, this should happen.

please stop posting unrelated and unnecessary things like this. it really isn't helpful.

 

[xes]

please stop posting unrelated and unnecessary things like this. it really isn't helpful.

makes me feel better though.

 

[editor]

G
I still think he was rubbernecking like the rest of us I don't buy this "walking home" business, he has live and worked in London for over ten years and worked all over London as I've seen him working at the Embankment Tube Station what's more he would had known where the protest was as he was selling newspapers, if he wanted to go home then he of all would had know a better way around the police cordon. It's his wife that insist that "he was walking home".

Utter bullshit. The cordon was widespread, flexible and dynamic and when we waked to the Climate Camp seemingly random roads would be blocked off, meaning we had to walk a considerably longer route to get there.

I see no reason why this couldn't have applied to Mr Tomlinson too.

Were you at the protest by the way?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

makes me feel better though.

you might have noticed that over the past few days, a great deal of material has surfaced through blogs and bulletin boards that has helped raise publicity on this case to a level that simply wouldn't have happened if a bunch of goons were posting videos of coppers getting a kicking or giving a kicking. think about it eh?

 

[Garcia Lorca]

you might have noticed that over the past wouldn't have happened if a bunch of goons were posting videos of coppers getting a kicking or giving a kicking. think about it eh?

you can understand the raised feelings tho? i also think its unhelpful to start calling other people "goons" for this time of response.

Think about it, yes your right. think about name calling to it has no place in this thread.

 

[Barking_Mad]

CCTV footage of this?

Witnesses said that, prior to the moment captured on video, he had already been hit with batons and thrown to the floor by police who blocked his route home.

One witness, Anna Branthwaite, a *photographer, described how in the *minutes before the video was shot, she saw Tomlinson walking towards Cornhill Street.

"A riot police officer had already grabbed him and was pushing him," she said. "It wasn't just pushing him – he'd rushed him. He went to the floor and he did actually roll. That was quite noticeable.

"It was the force of the impact. He bounced on the floor. It was a very forceful knocking down from behind. The officer hit him twice with a baton when he was lying on the floor.

"So it wasn't just that the officer had pushed him – it became an assault. And then the officer picked him up from the back, continued to walk or charge with him, and threw him.

"He was running and stumbling. He didn't turn and confront the officer or anything like that."

 

[xes]

you might have noticed that over the past few days, a great deal of material has surfaced through blogs and bulletin boards that has helped raise publicity on this case to a level that simply wouldn't have happened if a bunch of goons were posting videos of coppers getting a kicking or giving a kicking. think about it eh?

I get your point, but if it does happen in the future, the police will have nobody to blame but themselves. And I will let out a hearty laugh.

 

[sus]

Aye, you'd think any one of those cops, assuming they are the kind decent caring types that agricola implies they are, any one of them might have made a report, or possibly a complaint into an unprovoked assault on a member of the public by one of their team. I mean, that's what decent people would do, and there's 20 or more decent upstanding coppers there. I look forward to finding out that at least one of them, just one, made some sort of complaint about that. After all, that's what a decent person would do. I mean, I'm not a decent upstanding copper, just a public sector worker, and i'd have made a complaint if my colleague did that.

This would indeed be very interesting and indicative of the systemic failure of the police force(I'm guessing that none of them have filed this action in any report). That is of course assuming that the police actually wants to uphold justice rather than power.