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G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

Thing is, when the police deliberately set out, with full backing from the government to violently intimidate people away from taking part in peaceful protests, there are a several possible results. One is that their tactic works, another is that their tactic kills some unfortunate bystander and gets prohibited, a third possibility is that people refuse to be intimidated and start assuming that every demo is going to involve a savage battle with the cops ...

The jury is out on which way we're going in the UK ...
 
exleper

"This is something that worries me. People who are 'assertive'. That's a bit of an ambiguous word, isn't it?"

Fair enough. I am not in any way condoning violence, but Direct Action is clearly less likely to be ignored and more likely to be demonised than another pointless fucking march from A to B.

As for the police, they clearly dont need to be "afraid" of violence. They have the gear, the monopolt of violence and will wantonly assault and kill people who arent even a protester of any description.
 
I couldn't make it these protests but I went to what was publicised as the 'peaceful protests' on the Saturday beforehand from Temple to Hyde Park and saw no police intimidation, no aggression, no violence. There were no arrests. The police behaved extremely well, I thought. Nobody got in anybody's way and I had a great day. This was the same police force as the one on Wednesday. What was the difference? Why was there a difference?

Perhaps part of the reason was the media. The press got wind that the protests on April 1 would be attended by the more fringe anti-capitalist groups and whipped up hysteria, which surely would have contributed to the choice of rather foolish 'kettle' tactics, etc. So is the behaviour of the police dictated by their expectations? If they expect trouble, they act looking for trouble? It seems to me to end up in this ugly 'violence begets violence' catch22 pattern of which there is no easy solution. I don't know, it's hard to make sense and it's getting late.

the saturday protests were largely based around unions and other organisations with sufficient financial and organisational clout for the police to be sure that there would be serous repercussions if they went in hard on them, so they used the kid gloves.

the wednesday protests were organised by groups that the met would not have believed to have enough clout to cause any serious repercussions after the event, so they went in as hard as they could.

there's probably also an element of the rank and file believing the hype that had been coming from their high command for months before hand about the level of violence to expect, and that this had got them all pumped up and ready to give some anarchists a proper kicking at the first hint of an opportunity.
 
free spirit

"this had got them all pumped up and ready to give some anarchists a proper kicking at the first hint of an opportunity."

And random passers by of course.
 
REgarding the 'police had been under stress all day' excuse.

The police had several shift changes during the day - it may be that the cop who assulted mr tomlinson had just come on shift.
Certainly the cops who were on duty around 9pm were the most agressive - and they were fresh ( i saw them come on shift).
They get all phsyced up before stuff like this - they probalby have a haka in the van or something before charging out ready to batter members of the public.
 
free spirit

"this had got them all pumped up and ready to give some anarchists a proper kicking at the first hint of an opportunity."

And random passers by of course.
tbf, it could be hard to tell who was an anarchist and who wasn't what with all that dress up / dress down malarky... best just treat everyone as potential anarchists to be on the safe side.
 
tbf, it could be hard to tell who was an anarchist and who wasn't what with all that dress up / dress down malarky... best just treat everyone as potential anarchists to be on the safe side.

He was the only person that i seen all day in a Millwall football top! not linked in all likelihood with Climate change protests. I base my post entirely upon public perception not facts or otherwise. IT r.i.p was the least likely looking protester in zone 1 imo. The more i see and hear of his circumstances on the day the worse i feel. He appears to have done nothing wrong, nothing at all. If anything comes from this i just hope that the police that were hitting people throughout the day reflect upon their actions and hypothesize upon the time their own father/mother is trying to get home one day.
 
I bet the surveillance... nah, that doesn't work.


Dear City of London Police and IPCC:

Find every last scrap of surveillance video, or I give £10 to the server fund.

Rgds,

Laptop
 
I've just been through the video one frame at a time.

There seems to be the main group, a mix of dog handlers with City hats, and some others kitted, some masked up. Then seperately, there's the guy that does the assault. He's quite identifiable (he's got his hi-vis tucked 'up', unlike any of the others) and seems to come in from an angle, directly behind, independently (i.e. not part of the main group). Then he saunters off to the right, still with no others alongside. Not gone to speak to anyone else. He seems to pause for a moment, then wanders further right alone and off camera. During this a couple of the main group stare right in his direction - although it's not clear if they are looking at him or something else. Much of the latter stuff is only visible for a few frames at a time whilst the camera pans, but the stuff of the guy is fairly clear. The tucked viz, that he's left handed, no numbers, masked.

It's odd.

And worrying. If he's just rolled up randomly, with no numbers, it's possible the others there (who didn't exactly show a great deal of compassion it has to be said), wouldn't have a clue who he was.

I have bad feeling about this, but who knows. Maybe someone who does know will be brave/right enough to do the right thing.
 
I was there, and I'm taking great glee in seeing the truth about what happened that day come to light.

It wasn't just one cop acting out of character. It was a persistent and unified campaign of intimidation, disproportionate aggression and bullying against predominately peaceful protesters, all of whom were treated as criminals.

We were held against our will with no water or food and only got away by narrowly avoiding a baton smashed in the face, just for peacefully walking away.

They may have got away with justifying their tactics in the past by trying to pass off every protest as a carnival of violence, but they've become seriously unstuck here as the facts slowly trickle out. It's about time the Met faced the music for their tactics and this time they can't blame the protesters.

I couldn't have put it more eloquently myself.
 
Its going to be intersting (and sickening) to see how the police play this, now the video has come out. They will certainly have been ready for this and have the PR options in place. There's going to be an official 'we can't comment as this is subject to an inquiry' line - perhaps with added 'but officers were facing a very difficult situation/officers were assaulted' shite.

Beyond that I'd guess we might be hearing:

1. About the guy's criminal record (if he had one) and/or any other dirt they can find - won't be brave enough to say it publicly, but there'll be leaks to selective media

2. Something (untrue) about officers coming under specific attack in this area. On top of that, some high profile arrests/charges for anyone who smashed any windows - or even the people who 'masterminded' the protests. Anything to get the media spotlight on to something else and ramp up the idea that the police were facing actual danger.

3. Some kind of rationalisation of 'pushing' by the police - how it is really just a standard 'public order technique'.

Suspect they will ultimately have plans to throw the officer(s) to the wolves as a back up, rather than let it get back to the senior officers who planned the strategy. There'll also be a lot of work going on to spin a line that the guy died of heart failure 'unconnected' to the police attack on him.
 
Wrong. Straight out the gates the police said it was "natural causes". That wasnt true and they couldnt have known it to be true.

No, they did not say that "straight out of the gates", they may have said it in a briefing to journalists the day after the death and then the COLP said that the PM said it had been down to natural causes after the PM had taken place. The PM may indeed have come to that conclusion, we dont know because its not publicly available beyond that statement.

Before people go off on one I do urge them, if they have not already done so, to read the comments of the family of Tomlinson in the Guardian today.
 
Disgusting video.

If I were to approach a policeman who was walking away from me with his hands in his pockets and push him in exactly the same manner, causing him to fall to the ground like that, then a few minutes later he dies, I'd be charged with murder and probably be convicted of manslaughter.

Cos a copper did it, millions of our pounds will be spent trying to cover up a killing.

Agricola, you seem OK for an Old Bill, really, can you hold you head up high today and be proud to be part of this so called justice system?
 
For anyone who hasn't been invovled in protests or who wasn't there on the day and is shocked by this video - its how the police were behaving all day - and I saw several worse unprovoked attacks than whats on that video. Its pretty much how riot police behave all the time.

This is not a 'junior officer whose been poorly trained' or an individual bad apple - this is utterly normal cop behaviour. You see similar shit from the goon squad at football matches every week as well

That's very true. I was shoved in the back by a copper when I was walking to Craven Cottage one time, his justification was that I was in the road and a coach was coming - I was actually walking alongside the pavement and the coach was nowhere near.
 
the bbc report this morning is sick
cropped video, bumbling narrative and 1 bottle 1 fucking bottle :mad:
then they cut to the rbs window, jesus wept:mad:
 
I've been saying it for ages, the BBC is a fucking crock of shit. It's all manipulated and twisted to give 1 side the green light.

meanwhile on the uk police forums........ http://w ww.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33373 (link bust)
 
If I were to approach a policeman who was walking away from me with his hands in his pockets and push him in exactly the same manner, causing him to fall to the ground like that, then a few minutes later he dies, I'd be charged with murder and probably be convicted of manslaughter.

Cos a copper did it, millions of our pounds will be spent trying to cover up a killing.
Nail, head.

Can't see how it can be viewed any other way. As the Editor's Guardian quote says, De Menezes taught the Met nothing. They'll squirm, lie, obfuscate, smear, mislead, and brass neck, and hope everyone loses sight of the real issue, then finally - years down the line - apologize for "failings".
 
Top story on both radio 4 & 5, the former conducting a rather ludicrous interview with a Met rep who said that he couldn't speculate on police actions towards mr Tomlinson, before then going on to speculate about what it was that Mr Tomlinson could have been doing to contribute to any police response towards him. So essentially the now predictable approach of hoping that they can pin the blame on him/and or others, rather than accept culpability in any way shape or form for their overall brutal approach being to blame.

The family want investigators to interview the officer who pushed Tomlinson to the ground, and the two dog handlers seen close behind him in the footage. "We want answers: why? Ian clearly had his arms in his pockets and back towards the police. There is no need for them to step in towards him. It clearly shows that Ian did have an altercation. Now we can say, yes he did. Up until now it has been 'if'. But now we've seen it, we want answers." from grauniad
 
Watched the CCTV on the news this morning. First reaction is that it looks very bad from any point of view, certainly such a violent push in the back cannot be seen to be proportionate in that situation when he is walking away with hands in pockets. There is no direct threat there and to move someone on you don't need to employ that kind of force. If he has been hit whilst down then that too is hard to justify in those kind of situations.

I hope that the evidence is fully investigated and that if any criminal charges are brought then it is done so with proper fairness to all and and in good time.

Like any investigation you have to apply the same rules of evidence and law and then apply them again as this is an investigation into the police and must be seen to be impartial and thorough open and accountable.
 
Doesn't look like that's going to happen, does it PBP ?

Top story on both radio 4 & 5, the former conducting a rather ludicrous interview with a Met rep who said that he couldn't speculate on police actions towards mr Tomlinson, before then going on to speculate about what it was that Mr Tomlinson could have been doing to contribute to any police response towards him. So essentially the now predictable approach of hoping that they can pin the blame on him/and or others, rather than accept culpability in any way shape or form for their overall brutal approach being to blame.
 
This is how it will work.

There will be a police investigation into his death. For a manslaughter charge, a postmortem will have to show a direct link to his heart attack and him being pushed over, or being hit on the back of the legs.

If there is a link to him having a heart attack, and being pushed over, and the police officers action were deemed illegal by the CPS, then he could possibly face manslaughter charges.

If there is no link to him being pushed over, or hit on the back of the legs, to his heart attack, they may still go ahead with assault charges, or even assault charges if there is a link.

Here is the bit which many won't like, but the truth. They might not charged him no matter. Because his actions were not illegal and part of his training. They will interview the other police officers present, and has asked them what had happen before he was pushed over. If, and I do state IF, he would not move when asked to do so, will weigh against any charges being brought .

If there are charges brought against the police officer, expect a vigorous defence in court. At a guess, his defence team will show masked up demonstrators, the RBS being attacked, the widely shown clip of a police officer being struck on the head with a flag pole by a masked attacker, general missile throwing from the crowd, again, widely seen on TV. The pushing around of police officers,a clip shown on CH4 or SKY, of a group of police officers(not in riot gear) walking past a crowd of people jumping up and down to the beat of drums, who make an unprovoked attack on the last officer in line. Not to mention the miles of footage they have of violent demonstrators, not just from the standard CCTV, but their own filming taken from various vantage points. They will show leaflets handed out before the demos threatening violence, threats made on the Internet, they may even show the threats from Knight he gave in a CH4 interview.

They will use all this, and more, to try and explain the actions of the police officer who pushed him. His defence team I know doubt, will say he did push him to move him on, and did not mean to knock him down. The part they will struggle with, is him being hit on the back of the legs, not the worst kind of assault, but if deemed over the top, still illegal.

The really unpleasant part will be the dead man's health, and his actions that day, which his defence team will pick over. They will ask a jury to look at his past health, and I am really sorry to say this, if his own actions that day contributed to what happen. And I am afraid they will look at how much he had to drink that day, and if he has a past of heavy drinking. It's horrible I know, but this is what the defence team will do.

After looking again this morning at the clip, I accept the officer pushed him far to hard, instead of a less forceful push, the blow to the back of the legs was not needed. It's not as if a bunch of police officers had surrounded him beating him, But know one on here knows what had happen before, myself included.
I think the chances of a jury convicting him of anything are small, and the CPS will be aware of this.

I don't condone assaults by Bobbies, I think at the fox hunting demo(not that I support fox hunting) some police officers carried out assaults which they should have been convicted for.
The problem is getting a jury to convict.
The problem some on here forget, the police are just like anyone else, they get fed up being abused , pushed around, things thrown at them, sometimes assaulted, or people cheering when a police officer is hurt, and they react.

The man's death is so sad, but time will tell if he was killed, or died of natural courses.
 
Watched the CCTV on the news this morning. First reaction is that it looks very bad from any point of view, certainly such a violent push in the back cannot be seen to be proportionate in that situation when he is walking away with hands in pockets. There is no direct threat there and to move someone on you don't need to employ that kind of force. If he has been hit whilst down then that too is hard to justify in those kind of situations.

I hope that the evidence is fully investigated and that if any criminal charges are brought then it is done so with proper fairness to all and and in good time.

Like any investigation you have to apply the same rules of evidence and law and then apply them again as this is an investigation into the police and must be seen to be impartial and thorough open and accountable.

I wonder if there is any CCTV footage of the attack on him that is said to have taken place a few moments before this.
 
I've been saying it for ages, the BBC is a fucking crock of shit. It's all manipulated and twisted to give 1 side the green light.

meanwhile on the uk police forums........ http://w ww.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33373 (link bust)

thread closed, before they open their mouths too much again.......


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edit to add try this thread?

http://www. ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=33373

"Student Officer
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One thing that so far hasn’t been mentioned about the video is the police dogs and just how close they were. I don’t know the “facts” but is it possible that what you see is not an unprovoked attack or police brutality but an attempt at keeping a member of the public a safe distance from the police dogs? "

yup, here we go.. every excuse to try and say he was unfit, smoked, due to drop, keeping him safe all the rest of it.

cant they just say we caused him fookin stress!
 
Here is the bit which many won't like, but the truth. They might not charged him no matter. Because his actions were not illegal and part of his training. They will interview the other police officers present, and has asked them what had happen before he was pushed over. If, and I do state IF, he would not move when asked to do so, will weigh against any charges being brought .

If this were to be the case, then clearly their training is fundamentally flawed – as to hit a man with a baton and then violently push him over (and to have possibly done this twice in the space of a few minutes) are not the actions of a well disciplined police force that exists to do as they claim it does. To do this to a man who is clearly no threat and to do it whilst wearing a helmet, and balaclava is, well, barbaric.

What compounds the issue for me is the complete lack of care shown by the other half dozen officers. They hardly register his fall and indeed none of them has the humanity to go help him up.
 
From that Police Forum....

The Filth said:
''appearing to be somewhat obstructive'', I find that hard to justify M&MBM, he is just walking along with his hands in his pockets, he doesn't appear in any shape or form to be obstructive. Even if he said something to the officer there was no need for him to be pushed as he was. I hope that officer has to account for his actions. The last thing we need in the police force are thugs. Don't get me wrong, I have no time for these G20 demonstrators, they can spray them all with petrol as far as I am concerned, and throw in a match, most are people just out for a fight with the police.

Don't they realise sweeping generalizations like this are precisely the reason that the brave boys in blue feel they're justified to hit people with sticks on their way home from work?
 
I think the chances of a jury convicting him of anything are small, and the CPS will be aware of this.
This is why anyone concerned with a fair legal system should campaign for the CPS to be abolished. Our charging standard, based on subjective and onerous CPS "tests", is both excessive and capricious. A replacement prosecution service tasked with trying every prima facie case brought before it might be justified, but I would prefer returning power to the accuser, who is currently disenfranchised. If a prima facie cases exists, and the accuser wants to prosecute, a jury should decide.

None of this is pre-judging the evidence in the Tomlinson case.
 
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