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G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

you don't think the IPCC might have added that some of the witnesses to the push who'd come forward were coppers then? or that the met maybe should have issued a statement to that affect if the coppers had come forward as you suggest, so as to help correct the misleading impression given by their earlier statements?

this is the exact same arse covering bullshit media strategy the met employed with de menezes, and it stinks of a deeply rotten organisation.

No, because (a) the IPCC have only made the briefest statement to acknowlege the existance of this video and (b) the earlier official statements from both the IPCC and Met/COLP did not give a misleading impression. I do however think the IPCC should, as soon as possible, state whether or not that officer has been identified, though.
 
So no, I have never been part of a shield line or anything like that, nor have I ever kettled anyone - but then I am also aware of what is and what is not permitted for an officer to do, or not do, in those circumstances - because those arent any different for the lowliest Pc on a relief than they are for someone on the TSG.

So you probably have less experience of how the police behave in such situations than most posters on this thread. In other words most of us have been closer to a police line on a demo than you have and all you know is the party line.
 
Did you see any of his fellow officers giving a fuck after he'd criminally assaulted Tomlinson?

No? So what does that tell you?

That they look after there own.

This indivdual's act of violence is systematic of a wider methods used to police protests. He is part of a police force that trains it's PC's to violently surpress protests, he is part of a society in which the Government has restricted our rights to protest, he is part of a court system that justifies kettling.

The whole system is rotten to it's core and it's down to people like us to do something about it.
 
So you probably have less experience of how the police behave in such situations than most posters on this thread. In other words most of us have been closer to a police line on a demo than you have and all you know is the party line.

I would have thought my posts on this thread disproved that, but there you go.

edit: and to be honest, I cant ever remember a post on this thread where I have suggested anything about the tactics used at G20.
 
I havent tried to offer anything but my own opinions, sorry.

Fair enough. Just trying to make it clear the experience that formed those opinions. I've been posting here many years and know that you're filth but would like it to be clear on this thread exactly what level of filth you are as you seem to be arguing in support of the police (as an organisation, I'm not accusing you of supporting the arsehole who actually killed this guy).
 
So you probably have less experience of how the police behave in such situations than most posters on this thread. In other words most of us have been closer to a police line on a demo than you have and all you know is the party line.

Earlier in the thread, quite a few times, Agricola unequivocally condemned what he/she saw in the video.

(It's possible that you haven't seen those posts).
 
For what it's worth, agricola seems to me to be a reasonable bloke. So much so that I only realised he was a copper when he told me he was. I've never seen him try to bully anyone or use a tirade of foul mouthed aggression instead of a coherent argument, which I guess is why I never understood that he was on the force until he told me he was.
 
Dude, you dont know the full facts. You did not see the run up to the incident. Trust me, no matter how it looks the officers actions may well be justified. The fact of the matter is, you dony know, I dont know and if you dont know for a fact then best not to pass judgement too soon. You may well end up with egg on your face!

more gold from OB forums...
 
So you probably have less experience of how the police behave in such situations than most posters on this thread. In other words most of us have been closer to a police line on a demo than you have and all you know is the party line.

A fair point. I will stick up for Agricola so far as to say that he hasn't claimed to be posting anything other than his own opinion, and that his perspective is an interesting one which, unlike most of the other pro-police posters on this and the other g20 threads, has yet to descend into outright trolling and bullshit.

I will also say that the organisation he works for is rotten to the core and will remain so until the unaccountability, violence, authoritarianism, political kowtowing, prejudice, outright lying and 'sticking up for our own' gang mentality they've shown time and again are no longer tolerated.
 
Earlier in the thread, quite a few times, Agricola unequivocally condemned what he/she saw in the video.

(It's possible that you haven't seen those posts).

I saw those posts. He also asked us to wait for IPCC judgement before passing judgement and suggested that it was an unusual occurence and entirely the fault of the individual officer. I have very little faith in the IPCC and wanted to clear up Agricola's personal level of experience lest he be seen as some sort of police spokesperson.
 
more gold from OB forums...

When the news of Tomlinson's death first broke the plod forums were overflowing with posters declaring it a cast-iron fact that violent protestors had prevented him from getting treatment and, by implication, caused his death. Now the boot is on the other foot it's all "we don't know what happened so lets not jump to conclusions" :rolleyes: :mad:
 
A fair point. I will stick up for Agricola so far as to say that he hasn't claimed to be posting anything other than his own opinion, and that his perspective is an interesting one which, unlike most of the other pro-police posters on this and the other g20 threads, has yet to descend into outright trolling and bullshit.

I will also say that the organisation he works for is rotten to the core and will remain so until the unaccountability, violence, authoritarianism, political kowtowing, prejudice, outright lying and 'sticking up for our own' gang mentality they've shown time and again are no longer tolerated.

In which case I apologise for my deliberately provocative use of the term 'filth'.
 
No, because (a) the IPCC have only made the briefest statement to acknowlege the existance of this video and (b) the earlier official statements from both the IPCC and Met/COLP did not give a misleading impression. I do however think the IPCC should, as soon as possible, state whether or not that officer has been identified, though.
(a) the point I was making was in reference to the fact that as far as I can tell, none of the coppers on the video had come forward voluntarily before the video was released, so any statement the IPCC has made after it's released is irrelevant to that point.

(b)...
The City of London Police said: "A post-mortem examination found he died of natural causes.
"[He] suffered a sudden heart attack while on his way home from work.
"The family thanked all the people who rushed to Ian's aid when he collapsed and said how grateful they are for all the efforts that were made to help him."
[bbc-sat5th]
I don't see how anyone would come to the conclusion that the death was in anyway connected to the actions of any police officers from this widely reported statement. Therefore it is misleading, and should have been corrected had any of those officers come forward to tell the police or IPCC the fuller version of the events that led to his death. Note that I didn't say it was deliberately misleading.

to expand on what I said earlier, either none of those copper had come forward voluntarily prior to the video being released, or the police hierachy had decided to cover it up for as long as possible / at the very least do nothing to correct the false impression their original statements had given.
 
this now looks like a clear case of manslaughter. The only issue left is convicting the scumthug responsible and hopefully hauling the Met over the coals for being liars, and the press for believing their endless bullshit.
*no police ever get done for anything in this country - possibly in any country.

remember that with Rodney King the police all got let off by jury!:eek:

be prepared for at best some kind of moral victory in this battle - certainly no one will be charged with anything.

all you can hope to do is share with your friends and colleauges what bastards the police and media can be.
 
When the news of Tomlinson's death first broke the plod forums were overflowing with posters declaring it a cast-iron fact that violent protestors had prevented him from getting treatment and, by implication, caused his death. Now the boot is on the other foot it's all "we don't know what happened so lets not jump to conclusions" :rolleyes: :mad:

Lying prick filth. And muppet fuckwit stooge journos : Another faction of the enemy within.
 
Just to play devil's advocate here, and I'm not for one second in any way justifying the actions of the copper in the video, but there are a few things I did want to offer for the sake of balance in what seems a mostly one sided discussion...

1. This video, shocking though it is, is not necessarily indicative of a systemic problem of violence or brutality within the plod. Nor, I think, should all coppers be tarred with the same brush. A lot of them are decent people doing a tricky job.
2. For all this talk of violence, we shouldn't forget the pointless aggression also seen on that day from the protesters(and I know it was a TINY, microscopic minority of an otherwise peaceful crowd, but still, smashing windows and burning car achieves absolutely fuck all.) With all the press hysteria leading up to it the atmosphere was pretty tense anyway, NOTHING justifies the coppers actions, but it can explain it.
3. I do get that impression that many people on the internet, this forum especially, come to the table expecting a police fuck up and then take a particular amount of glee when they do. I can't see this as a healthy attitude. Like it or not we need the police and the only way we are going to improve things in this area is through mature and rational reconciliation and dialogue, rather than an immature 'us vs them' mentality which drives the coppers into these tragic fuck ups in the first place.

just to clarify: that video is tragic, and the copper who shoved Ian Tomlinson should be tried and convicted for manslaughter, and the people who lied about the nature of his death should be sacked, at the very least. I can see what's wrong here, but it's way too easy to self-righteous in that classic lefty 'fuck the police' way, in my extremely humble opinion.

edit: while I was writing this post, agricola made some very interesting and balanced posts, so my post seems a bit unecessary, but you get my drift.
 
*no police ever get done for anything in this country - possibly in any country.

remember that with Rodney King the police all got let off by jury!:eek:

be prepared for at best some kind of moral victory in this battle - certainly no one will be charged with anything.

all you can hope to do is share with your friends and colleauges what scum they all are

TBH, there are plenty more demos comming and people are unlikely to be as naive about the disgusting menace of the state in future. Demonstrators have a RESPONSIBILITY to health and safety of our comrades. We are peaceful but we must no longer be slack on self defence.
 
In which case I apologise for my deliberately provocative use of the term 'filth'.

I for one will never apologise for using such terminology. No matter how many 'good eggs' there are in the police force they all wear the same uniform as the nasty ones and will stick up for them when the shit hits the fan, so I personally wouldn't trust any of them :)
 
Thhe BBc clearly does have bias, agendas, etc one saw it in the way the welfare reform agenda has been portrayed, for example, they very rarely have any grassroots claimants on amd accept much of the 'language of the Govt spinmasters, eg, using terms like 'handouts', and of course, the BBC has famously declared 'it is not neutral on multi-culturalism.

btw, if this goes further and the perpetrators are brouight to justice, surely the role of the 'citizen journalist/photographer and the multifarious media which has in many ways, 'democratized news'


soory, back on topic to this awful event
 
The issue in my view is that the police are being used to suppress dissent. The tactics used are pretty clearly designed to intimidate people into not showing up to protest. Kettling, refusing to let people out of the kettle until they've been id'd and photographed, random violence as an aid to intimidation of the sort that killed the unfortunate Mr Tomlinson, viciously cynical PR briefings to a mostly cowed media, the introduction and almost immediate abuse of draconian anti-terror laws, most recently including one which could very easily be abused to prevent exactly this kind of evidence from emerging. There's something badly wrong with the way police are being used to exert a 'chilling influence' on public dissent in this country. It's got progressively worse over the last 30 or so years and it's about time that the mass of the public realised it and put a stop to it.
 
TBH, there are plenty more demos comming and people are unlikely to be as naive about the disgusting menace of the state in future. Demonstrators have a RESPONSIBILITY to health and safety of our comrades. We are peaceful but we must no longer be slack on self defence.

An issue for another thread I suspect. But I do think nonviolence = passivity is an idea that needs to be challenged. When coppers charge at you for no reason is it violent to stand your ground, or to protect those around you? If you run away or follow orders when threatened with violence are you perpetuating the use of violence?
 
J
3. I do get that impression that many people on the internet, this forum especially, come to the table expecting a police fuck up and then take a particular amount of glee when they do. I can't see this as a healthy attitude.
I was there, and I'm taking great glee in seeing the truth about what happened that day come to light.

It wasn't just one cop acting out of character. It was a persistent and unified campaign of intimidation, disproportionate aggression and bullying against predominately peaceful protesters, all of whom were treated as criminals.

We were held against our will with no water or food and only got away by narrowly avoiding a baton smashed in the face, just for peacefully walking away.

They may have got away with justifying their tactics in the past by trying to pass off every protest as a carnival of violence, but they've become seriously unstuck here as the facts slowly trickle out. It's about time the Met faced the music for their tactics and this time they can't blame the protesters.
 
The issue in my view is that the police are being used to suppress dissent. The tactics used are pretty clearly designed to intimidate people into not showing up to protest. Kettling, refusing to let people out of the kettle until they've been id'd and photographed, random violence as an aid to intimidation of the sort that killed the unfortunate Mr Tomlinson, viciously cynical PR briefings to a mostly cowed media, the introduction and almost immediate abuse of draconian anti-terror laws, most recently including one which could very easily be abused to prevent exactly this kind of evidence from emerging. There's something badly wrong with the way police are being used to exert a 'chilling influence' on public dissent in this country. It's got progressively worse over the last 30 or so years and it's about time that the mass of the public realised it and put a stop to it.
Frame this post over the front door to u75 please.

perpetrators are brouight to justice,
forget about it - there will be no prosecutions -there never are
 
If you're going to do devil's advocate you have to do a bit more than that, sorry, come on.
Alright, devil's advocate was the wrong phrase. Devil's advocate would have been "What if it wasn't the fault of the police?" whereas I was going "Here's a slightly alternative point of view".
 
Just shown on SKY news, police pushing him, and he falls over. Helped to his feet by others. He was walking very slowly in front of about dozen police, they were obviously telling him to move, which he appears not to keen to do so, just walking in front of them with his hands in his pocket. That's when the policeman gives him a shove and he goes over.
He did not look to steady on his feet before he went over.

Not sure if the policeman has done anything wrong, he was not struck with a baton, put pushed by the policeman, and he went over very easily.

He wasn't protesting or angry. He didn't do anything. Just crossing the street when he got taken out.

'he went over very easily' - what? He was attacked from behind by a lone police officer at sufficient force to throw him to the other side of street.
 
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