G20: Getting to the truth- the death of Ian Tomlinson RIP

[where to]

as soon as that went up on the Guardian website this story was out and there was no way it could be disappeared.

i think the bbc attitude is that they'd rather have the other news outlets (press and sky for example) do the early running with it and then they can be seen just to follow this story rather be behind it. this tells us quite a bit about them (they're shit scared) but its nothing particularly surprising.

what matters is now that this story is out, which it well and truly is, how are things taken forward from here?

 

[agricola]

True. They're still rubbish though.

R4 are being much more direct with this by the way - they're clearly saying "an officer is seen hitting him with a baton on the left leg then pushing him over", whereas on the telly, they're saying "now it does look like a police officer is involved here...".

BBC News, especially News 24, is rubbish anyway though, as Paolo999 says the coverage thus far on the BBC smacks more of inconsistency (and timidity) than anything else.

One also questions (and I appreciate you may not have said this) notions of a conspiracy anyway - you could perhaps imagine it with de Menezes, where very senior officers / government policy was involved to various extents, but this incident appears to be clearly down to one, probably very junior, officer acting in an apparent criminal manner, who can one imagines be safely condemned without it affecting anyone else (or rather, anyone senior) - if such things did occur, of course.

As for coverage of this video, they (the BBC) probably recognize that at this stage there is little else that can be done apart from show it - the rest of the story will have to wait until the IPCC has got its investigation underway. What else can you do? Replay it endlessly, have numerous talking heads agreeing solemnly about how out of order it is?

 

[editor]

Personally I'd cross the road to avoid aggregating cops in a situation like that -there real thugs in the force and if you give them a slight excuse they'll take a pop.

And what happens when you are unable to 'cross the road' on account of you being hemmed in by baton wielding cops?

 

[kenny g]

expect some political "scandal" or leak of new government initiative to swamp the headlines if this gets any bigger. Maybe even a royal engagement. These scum have enough pools of shite they can call upon if need be to cloud the newz aagen-da

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

The Graun are running this as an exclusive. this now looks like a clear case of manslaughter. The only issue left is convicting the scumthug responsible and hopefully hauling the Met over the coals for being liars, and the press for believing their endless bullshit.

 

[weltweit]

I expect you already picked this up ..

But this was featured on ITV News at Ten tonight. A short video of him being knocked down by a policeman and then IIRC another short piece at which it was announced he died of a heart attack.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

expect some political "scandal" or leak of new government initiative to swamp the headlines if this gets any bigger. Maybe even a royal engagement. These scum have enough pools of shite they can call upon if need be to cloud the newz aagen-da

Yep. The state reserves the right to kill serfs with impunity.

 

[bezzer]

hit to the back of the leg with a baton? could be deep vein thrombosis? sounds like murder - the Actus reus being the unlawfull killing in the queens peace and the mensrea maliice aforethoght or GBH... thin skull rule applies... really need an inquiry now...

 

[paolo]

expect some political "scandal" or leak of new government initiative to swamp the headlines if this gets any bigger. Maybe even a royal engagement. These scum have enough pools of shite they can call upon if need be to cloud the newz aagen-da

Sadly, that can and maybe will happen, without it being conspired. In the next week, this story could be drowned by anything.

And that would be a sad thing.

 

[editor]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

The Graun are running this as an exclusive. this now looks like a clear case of manslaughter. The only issue left is convicting the scumthug responsible and hopefully hauling the Met over the coals for being liars, and the press for believing their endless bullshit.

Kudos to the 'City type' who filmed the attack too:

The man who shot the footage, a fund manager from New York who was in London on business, said: "The primary reason for me coming forward is that it was clear the family were not getting any answers."

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

The Graun are running this as an exclusive. this now looks like a clear case of manslaughter. The only issue left is convicting the scumthug responsible and hopefully hauling the Met over the coals for being liars, and the press for believing their endless bullshit.

And de menezes was running down the stairs, vaulting the barrier with wires sticking out of him. The Met are a criminal organisation.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

BBC News, especially News 24, is rubbish anyway though, as Paolo999 says the coverage thus far on the BBC smacks more of inconsistency (and timidity) than anything else.

One also questions (and I appreciate you may not have said this) notions of a conspiracy anyway - you could perhaps imagine it with de Menezes, where very senior officers / government policy was involved to various extents, but this incident appears to be clearly down to one, probably very junior, officer acting in an apparent criminal manner, who can one imagines be safely condemned without it affecting anyone else (or rather, anyone senior) - if such things did occur, of course.

As for coverage of this video, they (the BBC) probably recognize that at this stage there is little else that can be done apart from show it - the rest of the story will have to wait until the IPCC has got its investigation underway. What else can you do? Replay it endlessly, have numerous talking heads agreeing solemnly about how out of order it is?

Oh, no, I don't call it a conspiracy, that implies something hidden - it's nothing out of the ordinary as you say. News24 is basically the Whitehall Channel; the TV news bulletins are slightly up from that; the other outlets are better but do come under a bit of scrutiny. Generally the actual journalists chafe at it but don't have a lot of opportunity to get past on-message editors. R4 has a few programmes which are strongly personality-led, so those personalities have an opportunity to affect the agenda should they choose to; they won't do anything too radical, but kicking the police here, I can see.

They don't just play the video, though. On the website - taken from Whitehall24 I think - I saw the Home Affairs correspondent seriously wondering whether these were really police officers at all. You know, this chap appears to be a policeman, given that he's wearing a police uniform, and he appears to be surrounded by other policemen in an area where there appeared to be police. We wouldn't want to be biased or anything and say "Tomlinson was pushed over by a copper". Balance!

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Kudos to the 'City type' who filmed the attack too:

Absolutely. There is still hope.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

BBC News, especially News 24, is rubbish anyway though, as Paolo999 says the coverage thus far on the BBC smacks more of inconsistency (and timidity) than anything else.

One also questions (and I appreciate you may not have said this) notions of a conspiracy anyway - you could perhaps imagine it with de Menezes, where very senior officers / government policy was involved to various extents, but this incident appears to be clearly down to one, probably very junior, officer acting in an apparent criminal manner, who can one imagines be safely condemned without it affecting anyone else (or rather, anyone senior) - if such things did occur, of course.

As for coverage of this video, they (the BBC) probably recognize that at this stage there is little else that can be done apart from show it - the rest of the story will have to wait until the IPCC has got its investigation underway. What else can you do? Replay it endlessly, have numerous talking heads agreeing solemnly about how out of order it is?

I don't know about 'one junior officer behaving in a criminal manner' my strong impression was that this sort of stuff was going on all over the place and this is simply the only case where the victim died a few minutes later.

 

[e19896]

This has now happened with the death of Ian Tomlinson in the City of London on 1 April.

He was not a G20 protestor, but was just making his way home after work.

The attack on Mr Tomlinson -- captured on video and published by The Guardian -- and other acts of brutality by the police at the G20 protests, show that life and limb are potentially in danger from policing tactics for anyone carrying out their lawful and democratic right to protest

A full public inquiry must be held into the circumstances of Mr Tomlinson’s death. A review of the confrontational and often brutal policing methods on lawful public demonstrations is now a matter of urgency to ensure that we have no more tragedies like the death of Ian Tomlinson.

http://stopwar.org.uk/content/view/1171/27/

I need to goto sleep, not shure if ill manage this haveing seen what ive seen, read what ive read full of tears and rage.

 

[agricola]

Yep. The state reserves the right to kill serfs with impunity.

I disagree... as I said above, this appears to be a relatively junior officer doing something that is both on his own back, and for which clear evidence appears to exist that he actually did it and who can, and of course should, be dealt with appropriately without it affecting anyone else.

Does anyone genuinely think they would create a vast (and necessarily implausible) conspiracy to save one Pc from the consequences of his own actions?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I disagree... as I said above, this appears to be a relatively junior officer doing something that is both on his own back, and for which clear evidence appears to exist that he actually did it and who can, and of course should, be dealt with appropriately without it affecting anyone else.

Does anyone genuinely think they would create a vast (and necessarily implausible) conspiracy to save one Pc from the consequences of his own actions?

What sort of "conspiracy" are you proposing here? It doesn't take a lot.

Closing ranks? Of course they do, of course they fucking do....

 

[nopassaran]

.... but this incident appears to be clearly down to one, probably very junior, officer acting in an apparent criminal manner, who can one imagines be safely condemned without it affecting anyone else (or rather, anyone senior) - if such things did occur, of course.

I think you need to take a trip over to Youtube and have a look at some of the footage there, to realise that this isn't just a case of one, or even a few bad apples. Indeed it would appear that the overall method of policing involved the meting out of indiscriminate violence to many innocent protestors.

It would also be interesting to find out just how many people suffered injuries as a consequence of the Police actions last week.

 

[editor]

I disagree... as I said above, this appears to be a relatively junior officer doing something that is both on his own back, and for which clear evidence appears to exist that he actually did it and who can, and of course should, be dealt with appropriately without it affecting anyone else.

Does anyone genuinely think they would create a vast (and necessarily implausible) conspiracy to save one Pc from the consequences of his own actions?

Did you see any of his fellow officers giving a fuck after he'd criminally assaulted Tomlinson?

No? So what does that tell you?

 

[paolo]

I saw the Home Affairs correspondent seriously wondering whether these were really police officers at all. You know, this chap appears to be a policeman, given that he's wearing a police uniform, and he appears to be surrounded by other policemen in an area where there appeared to be police.

That's just ridiculous. I like to think I'm a healthy sceptic, but FFS fake dog handlers? With the rather specific City of London hats?

Any name on that journo welcomed.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

That's just ridiculous. I like to think I'm a healthy sceptic, but FFS fake dog handlers? With the rather specific City of London hats?

Any name on that journo welcomed.

I can't find the video now

I am absolutely 100% positive that I heard that being said. The BBC are famous for replacing their web content without warning mind. I'll keep looking.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I disagree... as I said above, this appears to be a relatively junior officer doing something that is both on his own back, and for which clear evidence appears to exist that he actually did it and who can, and of course should, be dealt with appropriately without it affecting anyone else.

Does anyone genuinely think they would create a vast (and necessarily implausible) conspiracy to save one Pc from the consequences of his own actions?

No, but his actions appear to be entirely consistent with the behaviour a great number of officers on duty that day, which can be presumed to be intentional and intended to have a 'chilling effect' on displays of public dissent. I therefore imagine they'll resist very strongly any attempt to change the way such events are policed as a result of this incident. People were getting pushed around and whacked with batons all over London, it's just that this time they happened to kill some poor guy. Therefore what should happen is that the general behaviour of the police should be changed, if necessary by making an example of this fucking animal. We know that won't happen though don't we? The officer in question, assuming that he's ever identified, will be at the most, disciplined internally. After all, the government wouldn't want to harm police morale now would they? Especially if they anticipate a 'summer of rage' due to the economic disaster they and their mates have wished on the rest of us.

 

[paolo]

I disagree... as I said above, this appears to be a relatively junior officer doing something that is both on his own back, and for which clear evidence appears to exist that he actually did it and who can, and of course should, be dealt with appropriately without it affecting anyone else.

Does anyone genuinely think they would create a vast (and necessarily implausible) conspiracy to save one Pc from the consequences of his own actions?

A possible reaction to what we've seen, if you were neither perpetrator or supporter, would be to have as little recollection as possible. It doesn't mean collusion, just that you didn't see the specifics. That way you aren't the grass. Noone wants to be the grass.

 

[DotCommunist]

Christ you wouldn't believe the shite I'm getting from police forums.

Maybe the officer was pushing the man away from the dogs

 

[agricola]

Did you see any of his fellow officers giving a fuck after he'd criminally assaulted Tomlinson?

No? So what does that tell you?

That depends on what they have done subsequently.

 

[Retro]

That's just ridiculous. I like to think I'm a healthy sceptic, but FFS fake dog handlers? With the rather specific City of London hats?

Any name on that journo welcomed.

On 'the world tonight' on R4 a report by John Minel [spelling?] starts

It shows Ian Tomlinson being pushed over by a man who certainly looks like he is a policeman, in a police uniform and a riot helmet with a visor. This man is standing alongside other police officers

and later

We don't know if this incident in any way contributed to his death. All we know is the home office pathologist found he died of a heart attack

iPlayer from about 34 mins

 

[agricola]

A possible reaction to what we've seen, if you were neither perpetrator or supporter, would be to have as little recollection as possible. It doesn't mean collusion, just that you didn't see the specifics. That way you aren't the grass. Noone wants to be the grass.

The thing is though, and being entirely cynical and self-serving (rather than public-spirited) here, you wouldnt want to not be the grass if you were one of those officers who were near Tomlinson when he was pushed.

If they dont come forward - and they all may well have (as may have the officer involved), for all we know - they are all going to be justifiably dealt with when the investigation does find them, either through detective work or because someone else comes forward.

No, but his actions appear to be entirely consistent with the behaviour a great number of officers on duty that day, which can be presumed to be intentional and intended to have a 'chilling effect' on displays of public dissent. I therefore imagine they'll resist very strongly any attempt to change the way such events are policed as a result of this incident. People were getting pushed around and whacked with batons all over London, it's just that this time they happened to kill some poor guy. Therefore what should happen is that the general behaviour of the police should be changed, if necessary by making an example of this fucking animal. We know that won't happen though don't we? The officer in question, assuming that he's ever identified, will be at the most, disciplined internally. After all, the government wouldn't want to harm police morale now would they? Especially if they anticipate a 'summer of rage' due to the economic disaster they and their mates have wished on the rest of us.

Perhaps, but again being cynical the state / Police might turn around and excoriate this officer but claim that it wasnt representative of events on the day.

 

[nick h.]

I think you need to take a trip over to Youtube and have a look at some of the footage there, to realise that this isn't just a case of one, or even a few bad apples. Indeed it would appear that the overall method of policing involved the meting out of indiscriminate violence to many innocent protestors.

It would also be interesting to find out just how many people suffered injuries as a consequence of the Police actions last week.

I've started a separate thread about that. Doesn't seem to be any interest tbh. http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=285371

 

[e19896]

I can't find the video now

I am absolutely 100% positive that I heard that being said. The BBC are famous for replacing their web content without warning mind. I'll keep looking.

My mate works there going to ask him to do me a DVD of all G20 realted news from last week, he is in charge of I player and it,s uploads will have to 8 4 09 i need to rest:

 

[Tankus]

Seen on another forum (guido fawks) that a few think its a police woman that assaulted him
(badge an uniform has some differences from the other officers )
Maybe she just hates men ?

Where's the street cam footage ...? all of it ...... its wall to wall security cameras down there .....