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French magazine publishes controversial cartoons of Prophet Muhammad - many killed in revenge attack

No, I don't. (Although you do seem to be using the term in a way I don't recognise as its traditional meaning). I promote challenging racism.

I'm just using Kenan Malik's terms. I suspect Richard Seymour would say that he isn't promoting a culture of moral self-censorship but rather challenging islamophobia. There is a difference between challenging racism and challenging what Richard Seymour calls "islamophobia" but I don't think there is a difference in terms of how you go about it.

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Basically the point is that if you are going to declare solidarity with Charlie Hebdo you have to assess it first. It's no good just saying that it's daring and that it challenges a culture of self-censorship. I think I have been judging it too harshly, but all assessments from me are provisional due to my terrible French and lack of close familiarity with French politics.
 
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...all assessments from me are provisional due to my terrible French and lack of close familiarity with French politics.
If only some amongst the swathes of non-Francophone bloggers and columnists and commentariat, all rushing to have Very Important Opinions, might arrive at that self-acknowledgement also.
 
http://rt.com/news/221507-germany-attack-newspaper-arson/
A German newspaper, the Hamburger Morgenpost, that reprinted the Charlie Hebdo cartoons said it suffered an arson attack overnight.

The incident happened at about 2 am local time. Unidentified people threw stones and an incendiary devices into the building housing the “Hamburger Morgenpost” tabloid newspaper in Hamburg, Germany’s second largest city.

Police have arrested two men who were behaving suspiciously in the area at the time of the attack, said the newspaper. The authorities have launched an investigation.
 
Huge event building up in Paris - dignitaries from all over the world arriving - in the glare of the world's media.
If I allow myself one bit of conspiracying, it's the thought that this might be the real target - given what was done in Boston ...

The hate out there is horrendous. It's thrown light on the warped views of several people I had been listening to recently and who I considered intelligent and reasonable.

What a start to a year. :(
 
Huge event building up in Paris - dignitaries from all over the world arriving - in the glare of the world's media.
If I allow myself one bit of conspiracying, it's the thought that this might be the real target - given what was done in Boston ...

The hate out there is horrendous. It's thrown light on the warped views of several people I had been listening to recently and who I considered intelligent and reasonable.

What a start to a year. :(
The trumpeting triumphalism on the 'The Andrew Marr Show' was quite shocking. All that was missing was martial music.

And neocon loonie Douglas Murray is on The Big Question.
 
‘We vomit’ on Charlie Hebdo’s sudden friends, staff cartoonist says
A prominent Dutch cartoonist at Charlie Hebdo heaped scorn on the French satirical weekly’s “new friends” since the massacre at its Paris offices on Wednesday.

“We have a lot of new friends, like the pope, Queen Elizabeth and (Russian President Vladimir) Putin. It really makes me laugh,” Bernard Holtrop, whose pen name is Willem, told the Dutch centre-left daily Volkskrant in an interview published today.

France’s far-right National Front leader “Marine Le Pen is delighted when the Islamists start shooting all over the place,” said Willem, 73, a long-time Paris resident who also draws for the French leftist daily Liberation.

He added: “We vomit on all these people who suddenly say they are our friends.”

Commenting on the global outpouring of support for the weekly, Willem scoffed: “They’ve never seen Charlie Hebdo.”
They might as well vomit on a few of their new enemies as well while they're at it.
 
But not in the way he does. You seem to be imagining he means something wider.

In a sense yes because the following:
Instead, they have helped create a new culture of self-censorship. Partly, it is a question of fear, an unwillingness to take the kind of risks that the editors of Charlie Hebdo courted, and for which they have paid such a heavy price. But fear is only part of the explanation. There has also developed over the past two decades a moral commitment to censorship, a belief that because we live in a plural society, so we must police public discourse about different cultures and beliefs, and constrain speech so as not to give offence.

Could just as well be said about racism due to the fact we live in a multi-racial society. We can quibble about whether the term "culture of self-censorship" is used in its proper sense, but it's pretty clear what he is talking about. That moral commitment exists on Urban. Racists get banned and nobody ever objects. That's not a criticism, but I wonder why those who are impressed by this article don't complain when racists get banned.

I think Malik's abstract discussion of free speech obscures the distinctions he wishes to make. He doesn't have objections to challenging racism. But the radical way he has formulated freedom of expression and his tying it to the importance of cultural criticism of minorities leaves him in a muddle. [My point is quite subtle but, I think, important - I agree with him on both scores (anti-censorship and cultural criticism) I just object to trying to derive one from the other.]

It's a reasonable question to which I am not competent to answer, but does Charlie Hebdo have a record of racism? And its a question I want to ask before I declare, "Je suis Charlie Hebdo." And there are other questions too. Eg. What political agendas are behind their criticism of Islam, is it a simple anti-clerical stance? Does it apply to all religions across the board? (The answer to these last two seems to be yes and yes, but still I want to ask these questions before we start talking about bravery.)
 
In a sense yes because the following:
"they have helped create a new culture of self-censorship".

He means, a culture of people biting their (own) tongues. You talked, in an earlier post, about promoting "a moral commitment to self-censorship. I know I do." I think I asked you what it is that you want to say but don't. Because that's what self censorship means. I suspect that there's nothing racist you want to say but don't, because you aren't racist. And this is the core of our mutual misunderstanding here. Self censorship does nothing to combat racist if you aren't racist! And if someone is racist, it still doesn't combat their racism, it just teaches them to keep quiet about it. "Good", you might say, and in certain circumstances it is, but in the longer term you want to be able to encourage people to confront the assumptions behind their racism. (Note also, I'm talking here about individual racism - I do think you can use different tactics in your arsenal against organised racism - because that is an organisation seeking to oppress).

Could just as well be said about racism due to the fact we live in a multi-racial society. We can quibble about whether the term "culture of self-censorship" is used in its proper sense, but it's pretty clear what he is talking about. That moral commitment exists on Urban. Racists get banned and nobody ever objects. That's not a criticism, but I wonder why those who are impressed by this article don't complain when racists get banned.
Because Urban75 isn't society; it's the Editor's front room.

I think Malik's abstract discussion of free speech obscures the distinctions he wishes to make. He doesn't have objections to challenging racism.
That's right, because free speech isn't about only one person or one statement having it - others can and do and must reply - that's what free speech means. (I talked about this in my post a while back, when I said it's a misunderstanding that many people have).

I'll give you an example. When Farage came to Edinburgh, he was met with lively protests. Some in the media and in politics (including George Galloway) said the protesters were denying Farage freedom of speech. No they wren't - they were exercising theirs.

But the radical way he has formulated freedom of expression and his tying it to the importance of cultural criticism of minorities leaves him in a muddle.
With respect, no, I think it's you that's in the muddle. Not because I'm disagreeing with your tenor, but because I think you're misinterpreting what he's actually saying, both giving his "self censorship" a wider sense than he gives it, and restricting what "free speech" means.

And while we're on terms, you used one I have problems with - "Islamophobia". I've had run-ins on here before about this, but I think it's exactly part of the problem as I see it. Islamophobia is not analogous with anti Semitism. For that you'd need something like "Muslimophobia" (a term nobody uses, but which I wish they would). The trouble is that "Islam" is a religion, a philosophy. I don't think there's anything wrong with hating or being afraid of a philosophy, a set of ideas. As an atheist, there is much I dislike about Islam. Just as there is much I dislike about Judaism, but I wouldn't want to be called an anti Semite. This fudging of terms is being widened out by the neoliberals in power to include political ideas. Disliking political ideas can now be hate speech. (See the example I gave of a man arrested and sentenced for heckling Cameron about austerity). Those in political power are using these sort of notions to limit what we're allowed to challenge. That's a problem for us all, from progressives within minority communities, to wider movements for defence against austerity attacks, and those advocating social change. That's why free speech and freedom of expression is tried up in this. If we agree to limitations in one sphere because we misinterpret it as an anti racist measure, then we end up limiting our ability to defend ourselves.

It's a reasonable question to which I am not competent to answer, but does Charlie Hebdo have a record of racism? And its a question I want to ask before I declare, "Je suis Charlie Hebdo."
I quite agree. Which is why I've never said "je suis charlie". I don't think it's necessary to adopt that slogan in order to defend the principle of free speech.
 
"Islamophobia is not analogous with anti Semitism."

Easy to say if you're not in Gaza or a Bosnian in Srebrenica. Jewish exceptionalism doesn't wash imho.

You've totally missed danny's point about the distinction between Islamophobia and what he's calling Muslimophobia.
 
Why should you decide what's politically empowering for women? Not seen and not heard - you think that women wearing the veil are not seen and heard? :D
I don't decide. I merely observe that women living in semi-seclusion within an extreme patriarchy are politically powerless. And I think it is absurd to attempt to deny it.
 
Defining bigotry as Muslimophobia demeans the true hate and bigotry involved. Muslims only exist because Islam exists, deflection is disingenuous.

It seems to me that it's you who is being disingenuous, by suggesting that there is no meaningful difference between being against a particular religion (or indeed all religion) and bigotry against individual members of a particular religion.

You can be anti-Islam without being anti-Muslim, just as you can be anti-Judaism without being anti-Jew, just as you can be anti-Catholicism without being anti-Catholic (see butchersapron's earlier post about his mum) etc.

You're suggesting danny's guilty of "Jewish exceptionalism" (he's clearly not), but you appear to be resorting to some sort of Islamic exceptionalism
 
I don't decide. I merely observe that women living in semi-seclusion within an extreme patriarchy are politically powerless. And I think it is absurd to attempt to deny it.
Some women are living that way. Some women aren't living that way. The veil doesn't serve as an accurate indicator of how women are living their lives: some women wear and some don't wear the veil in the same household, for example. And women wear the veil for a variety of reasons as you must know if you have talked to women who wear it and/or have read their accounts of why they wear it.

In any event, it's not for the state (mainly men) to decide. Deciding they can't wear it is just as bad as deciding they have to.
 
He means, a culture of people biting their (own) tongues. You talked, in an earlier post, about promoting "a moral commitment to self-censorship. I know I do." I think I asked you what it is that you want to say but don't. Because that's what self censorship means. I suspect that there's nothing racist you want to say but don't, because you aren't racist. And this is the core of our mutual misunderstanding here.

I didn't say I self-censor I said I promote a culture of self-censorship (probably not as much as I should do, infact!). Promoting a culture of self-censorship may not be the intent of challenging racism, but it is an effect. Ask any racist and they will tell you this.

Self censorship does nothing to combat racist if you aren't racist! And if someone is racist, it still doesn't combat their racism, it just teaches them to keep quiet about it. "Good", you might say, and in certain circumstances it is, but in the longer term you want to be able to encourage people to confront the assumptions behind their racism. (Note also, I'm talking here about individual racism - I do think you can use different tactics in your arsenal against organised racism - because that is an organisation seeking to oppress).

Because Urban75 isn't society; it's the Editor's front room.

It's a microcosm and it's an institute in its own right. I'm actually agnostic about how U75 tackles racism, it depends on what sort of board you want. But it functions as a space where people can talk "without having to deal with that type of shit". There may be a broader duty to "deal with that shit" outside U75, but here we don't just treat racist views as just another set of views to be argued with. You can pretty much guarantee that there are a few individuals here who don't feel they can speak their minds on certain things due to this "moral culture". Not that I have a problem with that.

And while we're on terms, you used one I have problems with - "Islamophobia". I've had run-ins on here before about this, but I think it's exactly part of the problem as I see it. Islamophobia is not analogous with anti Semitism. For that you'd need something like "Muslimophobia" (a term nobody uses, but which I wish they would). The trouble is that "Islam" is a religion, a philosophy. I don't think there's anything wrong with hating or being afraid of a philosophy, a set of ideas. As an atheist, there is much I dislike about Islam. Just as there is much I dislike about Judaism, but I wouldn't want to be called an anti Semite. This fudging of terms is being widened out by the neoliberals in power to include political ideas. Disliking political ideas can now be hate speech. (See the example I gave of a man arrested and sentenced for heckling Cameron about austerity). Those in political power are using these sort of notions to limit what we're allowed to challenge. That's a problem for us all, from progressives within minority communities, to wider movements for defence against austerity attacks, and those advocating social change. That's why free speech and freedom of expression is tried up in this. If we agree to limitations in one sphere because we misinterpret it as an anti racist measure, then we end up limiting our ability to defend ourselves.

The term isn't perfect but I'm not too fussed. Actually a lot of classical anti-semitism is also "criticism of religion". Blood libel being one example ie. supposing that it is part of the Jewish doctrine to drink blood of Christian children etc. Anti-semitism evolved out of anti-Judaism and includes much which is properly anti-Judaism.
 
Some women are living that way. Some women aren't living that way. The veil doesn't serve as an accurate indicator of how women are living their lives: some women wear and some don't wear the veil in the same household, for example. And women wear the veil for a variety of reasons as you must know if you have talked to women who wear it and/or have read their accounts of why they wear it.

In any event, it's not for the state (mainly men) to decide. Deciding they can't wear it is just as bad as deciding they have to.
and even if they are in semi-seclusion, it does not follow they do not exert influence.
 
...Actually a lot of classical anti-semitism is also "criticism of religion". Blood libel being one example ie. supposing that it is part of the Jewish doctrine to drink blood of Christian children etc. Anti-semitism evolved out of anti-Judaism and includes much which is properly anti-Judaism.

Sorry, but that's nonsense.

Blood libel is clearly a "criticism" of a particular religion rather than a criticism of religion in general, and what's more it's a criticism based on a lie, a fabrication, and therefore clearly motivated entirely by anti-semitism rather than anti-Judaism.
 
Could just as well be said about racism due to the fact we live in a multi-racial society. We can quibble about whether the term "culture of self-censorship" is used in its proper sense, but it's pretty clear what he is talking about. That moral commitment exists on Urban. Racists get banned and nobody ever objects. That's not a criticism, but I wonder why those who are impressed by this article don't complain when racists get banned.

Exactly.

There are people on here who loudly applaud when Fascist meetings are disrupted by violence, yet are happy to run around with "jesuischarlie" stickers.

It's damned weird.
 
Promoting a culture of self-censorship may not be the intent of challenging racism, but it is an effect. Ask any racist and they will tell you this.
It can be, I agree. That depends on how it's challenged, I think.
It's a microcosm and it's an institute in its own right. I'm actually agnostic about how U75 tackles racism, it depends on what sort of board you want.
Yes, it is an institution. And I have no problem with that institution deciding its own rules. That's very different from the state and civil society deciding for all of us what we can and can't say.

Blood libel being one example ie. supposing that it is part of the Jewish doctrine to drink blood of Christian children etc. Anti-semitism evolved out of anti-Judaism and includes much which is properly anti-Judaism.
Yeah, but the blood libel isn't a criticism of Judaism; it's a lie, and a lie about Jews. It's an anti-Semitic attack.
 
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