Freeman-on-the-land idiocies

[two sheds]

quoting from http://www.canlii.ca/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html again:

I will now briefly outline my understanding of the meaning of certain of Mr. Meads’ actions and statements:

1. Mr. Meads clearly subscribes to the OPCA ["Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument"] concept that he has two aspects, what I later discuss as the ‘double/split person’ concept. ... labels one aspect as a “person” or “corporate entity” while the other is his “flesh and blood” form.

2. Mr. Meads also subscribes to the theory that almost any interaction with the court or state can result in a binding contract. That is why he was so apprehensive about accepting my proposal to order disclosure from Ms. Meads - that apparently benign act would allegedly bind him in contract to this Court’s authority.

3. The reference to Admiralty Law relates to an OPCA concept that there are two kinds of law, “common law” and “admiralty law”, and Mr. Meads rejected application of the latter to himself.

4. The discussion of the alleged source of funds to discharge his child and spousal support obligations, a bank account related to his birth certificate, indicates Mr. Meads has advanced a ‘money for nothing’ scheme called “A4V”.

These are all, of course, nonsense."

- and quite correct that they're labeled as 'vexatious litigants' - exactly what they turn into.

 

[Jazzz]

How on earth can you possibly be convinced by someone showing a bill which looks to have been payed is actually a company writing a debt off because the person allegedly told some bailiffs to fuck off? Where in that letter does it say what you are claiming has happened? That letter doesn't even show a company name. You are convinced by that, but not the Obama birth cert? I could knock up an exact forgery of that in seconds.

Mental.

Well, it could be fake. Certainly looks a better scan than the birth certificate you mention
The details specify that no payments were received, but the account was adjusted to zero. So that is in keeping with the claim.

 

[fogbat]

Get help.

 

[Jazzz]

quoting from http://www.canlii.ca/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html again:

This is the Justice John Rooke that called rape victims 'stupid' - great stuff!
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/judge-calls-rape-victim-stupid

 

[laptop]

OPCA litigants appear, engage in a court drama that is more akin to a magic spell ritual than an actual legal proceeding, and wait to see if the court is entranced and compliant. If not, the litigant returns home to scrutinize at what point the wrong incantation was uttered, an incorrectly prepared artifact waved or submitted.

 

[laptop]

I skived from my other reading.

E. OPCA Gurus

[669] In his poem Inferno at Cantos 26-30, Dante placed the “evil counsellors” ‑ those who used their position to advise others to engage in fraud, and “the falsifiers” ‑ alchemists, counterfeiters, perjurers, and imposters, into the inner canyons of the eighth circle of hell. As sinners, the evil counsellors and falisifiers were matched by those who induce religious schisms, and surpassed only in fault by oath‑breakers.

[670] Persons who purposefully promote and teach proven ineffective techniques that purport to defeat valid state and court authority, and circumvent social obligations, appear to fall into those two categories. That they do so, and for profit at the expense of naive and vulnerable customers, is worse.

[671] William S. Burroughs in Naked Lunch (New York: Grove Press, 1962, p. 11) wrote: “Hustlers of the world, there is one Mark you cannot beat: The Mark Inside.” I believe that is true for you. At some basic level, you understand that you are selling lies, or at the very most generous, wildly dubious concepts.

[672] It does not matter whether you frame your ‘business’ as a joke, religion, for educational purposes only, or as not being legal advice; your ‘business’ harms your naive or malicious customers, their families, and the innocent persons whom your customers abuse as they attempt to exercise what you have told them are their rights.

[673] You cannot identify one instance where a court has rolled over and behaved as told. Not one. Your spells, when cast, fail.

http://www.canlii.ca/en/ab/abqb/doc/2012/2012abqb571/2012abqb571.html

Like the range of citations

 

[Jon-of-arc]

Well, it could be fake. Certainly looks a better scan than the birth certificate you mention
The details specify that no payments were received, but the account was adjusted to zero. So that is in keeping with the claim.

Where does it show that the account was "adjusted" to zero? It shows a credit od 3k. A credit as if youd just paid your bill. Or perhaps they overcharged the guy and deleted the wrong charge. They dont tend to let you rack up unpaid bills of 3 grand, either.

 

[BigTom]

Where does it show that the account was "adjusted" to zero? It shows a credit od 3k. A credit as if youd just paid your bill. Or perhaps they overcharged the guy and deleted the wrong charge. They dont tend to let you rack up unpaid bills of 3 grand, either.

The bit about death certificate and general executioner to the estate make me think the bill payer has died with no estate and that's why the debt has been written off.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Jazz I once got £50 put into my bank account coz I went into RBS one day after they'd changed my overdraft limit without sending a letter, fucking up all my direct debits and leaving me potless etc, and acted the dickhead. Complained about everything. Refused to leave. Made a right prick of myself. Just because someone got a magistrate or bailiff or some other functionary to leave them alone after ranting a load of vexatious freeman of the land crap at them means absolutely nothing, even if it was all true, which is unlikely.

It definitely had nothing to do with a arcane conspiracy of corporations and banks trying to enslave the world with debt, nor was I calling leviathans bluff and proving that I was a sovereign state incarnate. I can't believe you buy into this absolute horseshit.

 

[Delroy Booth]

 

[Pingu]

i love reading these threads.

it makes me feel like my views are actually in touch with reality

 

[ExtraRefined]

The bit about death certificate and general executioner to the estate make me think the bill payer has died with no estate and that's why the debt has been written off.

I don't think so, it seems this is one of their bonkers ploys, where they claim that JOHN SMITH is dead, and they are John of Smith.

I'm not sure why the FoTL lot attract so much vitriol. At least on the getoutofdebtfree.org forum, they seem to just be deluded, naive and desperate; not malicious. The people they're picking fights with are for the most part bailiffs and corporations, an approach which I'd expect to get more sympathy, even if they are loonies.

 

[BigTom]

I don't think so, it seems this is one of their bonkers ploys, where they claim that JOHN SMITH is dead, and they are John of Smith.

I'm not sure why the FoTL lot attract so much vitriol. At least on the getoutofdebtfree.org forum, they seem to just be deluded, naive and desperate; not malicious. The people they're picking fights with are for the most part bailiffs and corporations, an approach which I'd expect to get more sympathy, even if they are loonies.

The problem isn't who they are picking fights with but that there's going to be a lot of desperate people who try this shit and it doesn't (and in any legal sense can't) work and they end up in much worse situations than they would have been if they'd gone about things in the normal way.

 

[Jon-of-arc]

I don't think so, it seems this is one of their bonkers ploys, where they claim that JOHN SMITH is dead, and they are John of Smith.

I'm not sure why the FoTL lot attract so much vitriol. At least on the getoutofdebtfree.org forum, they seem to just be deluded, naive and desperate; not malicious. The people they're picking fights with are for the most part bailiffs and corporations, an approach which I'd expect to get more sympathy, even if they are loonies.

Personally, I couldn't care less if fotl types want to go and make twats of themselves in court. That bit is sort of funny, in a really cringeworthy way. Sort of embarrassed on their behalf, but I can't help smiling at the thought of them turning courtrooms into circuses, with idiot judges just not knowing what to make of it all, and often failing to get a handle on the situation. The op video is a case in point.

What I do object to is being asked to believe it myself. This is essentially having a really thick person call you thick. Patronising, insulting, frustrating. Frustrating because, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, these people cannot see that their views are bollocks. Unlike other conspiracy theory stuff, a central tenet of which is usually that the theory is undisprovable, this freeman shit is based upon lies that can be shown to be lies, as we have the true basis for our laws written down in handy statute books. Yet they go on believing it, and calling you an idiot for not believing it.

There is also the frequently mentioned individualist right wing libertarian aspect to their shtick, which is politically objectionable. Especially when they try to dress it up as some new agey, hippy, freedom loving revolution thing.

Finally, the other scary thing about them is that they are quite willing to pass their dangerous nut shit onto others, many of whom are desperate, or possibly vulnerable. For someone down on their luck, this shit can be quite appealing, like a religious cult, but will ultimately end up hurting that person, again, like a religious cult. For this reason alone, it is important to consistently highlight that what fotls are offering is nothing more than legal snake oil.

 

[Jazzz]

Jazz I once got £50 put into my bank account coz I went into RBS one day after they'd changed my overdraft limit without sending a letter, fucking up all my direct debits and leaving me potless etc, and acted the dickhead. Complained about everything. Refused to leave. Made a right prick of myself. Just because someone got a magistrate or bailiff or some other functionary to leave them alone after ranting a load of vexatious freeman of the land crap at them means absolutely nothing, even if it was all true, which is unlikely.

It definitely had nothing to do with a arcane conspiracy of corporations and banks trying to enslave the world with debt, nor was I calling leviathans bluff and proving that I was a sovereign state incarnate. I can't believe you buy into this absolute horseshit.

Mate, the reason it has become something of a movement is that people ARE having results with it - however exactly it is working. Now unquestionably, there is a lot of absolute nonsense out there. However I have myself seen high court bailliffs give up and someone's business really saved by the effect of 'freeman' stuff.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

No you haven't.

 

[Dan U]

from that judgement

The famous are not immune; for example the American action movie actor Wesley Snipes adopted OPCA techniques in an attempt to defeat his income tax obligations: United State v. Wesley Trent Snipes et al., No. 5:06‑cr‑00022‑WTH‑GRJ‑1 (U.S.D.C. M.D. Fl., February 1, 2008). Snipes presently is serving a three year prison sentence for income tax evasion.

 

[captainmission]

Mate, the reason it has become something of a movement is that people ARE having results with it - however exactly it is working. Now unquestionably, there is a lot of absolute nonsense out there. However I have myself seen high court bailliffs give up and someone's business really saved by the effect of 'freeman' stuff.

Out of these 2 which do you think is more likely;

1) that there's a distinction between 'legal' and 'true' people? and every magistrate, justice and JP in any common law juristiction secretly know this? And they're waiting for the correct legal incantation to be preformed at which point they're rendered powerless like rumplestitskin hearing his true name? And not one of them has broken ranks and revealed this? And not a single lawyer, solicitor or legal advisor out of the millions there are in the world have ever stumbled across this fact? And it falls to a squalid bunch of petty tories, whose stunted imaginations extends no further than dreaming of a world where they don't have to pay water bills or child support, to reveal this?

or,

2) debts are hard to enforce against people with no money and no assets. A creditor may not want to take court action because they don't believe they'll be able to recover the money even if they do get a judgement, or they don't want the terms of their contracts exposed to the scrutiny of a court, and they need to pay an up fee for using the court. Bailiffs collecting on certain debts will not have the power of forceful entry. If there's no assets outside the property and the debtor denies them entry there is little they can do but give up. Even where a bailiff can force entry they are often not particularly keen to use this power because the resale value of the assets are rarely worth their time and effort.

and that some one who is prone to magical thinking has mistaken the outcome of these real world impracticalities, financial risk assessment or poor administration to his anti-legal wizardry?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2008/0805.carey.html

I came across this following a link from here. An example of black drug dealers using a 'freeman' type defence developed by white supremacists to try and beat a number of murder and conspiracy charges.

Although this was written before the conclusion of the trial they got sentences ranging from life plus 60 years to nine life sentences plus 60 years. They did avoid the death penalty though which the article speculates could be partially down to their being obstructive. On the other hand their coordinated use of the freeman defence was used against them as evidence of conspiracy.

 

[butchersapron]

I just watched the first minute of the vid in the OP, the text stuff explaining their case. There is an embarrassing error right at the heart of it. They say:

There is NO law that demands that man or a woman should have to pay council tax. There is only the 1992 Local Government Finance Act, which being an act of parliament can only be enforced with consent.

Unfortunately for them, the consent required is that of parliament, not of individuals, and has been given by the passing of the Act itself, which then becomes law.

 

[laptop]

Er, as far as it's worth understanding, their assertion is that the Social Contract is an actual contract - and moreover that it contains a clause allowing them to repudiate it.

Which invites the response from some judge faced with their interminable fuckwittery: "Surely the repudiation clause must be symmetrical. I therefore suspend your civil rights, and jail you indefinitely."

 

[andysays]

Er, as far as it's worth understanding, their assertion is that the Social Contract is an actual contract - and moreover that it contains a clause allowing them to repudiate it

I look forward to them producing that as Exhibit A for the defence...

 

[kavenism]

Er, as far as it's worth understanding, their assertion is that the Social Contract is an actual contract - and moreover that it contains a clause allowing them to repudiate it.

Which invites the response from some judge faced with their interminable fuckwittery: "Surely the repudiation clause must be symmetrical. I therefore suspend your civil rights, and jail you indefinitely."

If only. As far as these venal fuckwits are concerned I'd be happy to see a labour camp set up in Hyde Park to house them while they're subjected to a hail of sloppy cornets and ranting from their fellow loonbarrows at speakers corner.

 

[kimbo000]

This dude has beaten the court system, and now doesn't pay council tax. How they got Andy Peters to do the commentry is beyond me

he got a layman to represent him in court, it was thrown out within 15 minutes. Play them at their own game of loopholes and wankery. It fucking works. (this is what I've been waiting for, for a looong time)



There is NO LAW to say that you have to pay council tax, btw.

This dude has beaten the court system, and now doesn't pay council tax. How they got Andy Peters to do the commentry is beyond me

he got a layman to represent him in court, it was thrown out within 15 minutes. Play them at their own game of loopholes and wankery. It fucking works. (this is what I've been waiting for, for a looong time)



There is NO LAW to say that you have to pay council tax, btw.

Yes mate all i can say is i have been on the other end of this also.. i was a squatter in Bristol.. taking over some big abandoned buildings and re housing lots of homeless, One day tho our doors were kicked through and around 9 massive heavys that were semi balaclava'd had broken in.. they threatened us , had dogs tazers and weapons .. we had 10 mins to leave .. they were a common law security firm.. the police arrived but refused to get involved as they DID NOT KNOW COMMON LAW and called it a civil matter.. with that saw around 20 people kicked on to the street, They get involved when they feel like it , END OF

 

[Whtstruistru]

To all I say go to the fmotl website!! Or read the book entitled 'Freedom is more than a seven letter word' I was sceptical about this but have been proven by my own experiences!! First read up and then judge someone for their views/beliefs!!
Quote " You are a prisoner Neo! Your prison has no bars! It is a prison for your mind!"

 

[8ball]

To all I say go to the fmotl website!! Or read the book entitled 'Freedom is more than a seven letter word' I was sceptical about this but have been proven by my own experiences!! First read up and then judge someone for their views/beliefs!!
Quote " You are a prisoner Neo! Your prison has no bars! It is a prison for your mind!"

Ooh! Can I have some free stuff please?
Got any merch?

 

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

To all I say go to the fmotl website!! Or read the book entitled 'Freedom is more than a seven letter word' I was sceptical about this but have been proven by my own experiences!! First read up and then judge someone for their views/beliefs!!
Quote " You are a prisoner Neo! Your prison has no bars! It is a prison for your mind!"

AFAIK Neo didn't pay any parking fines or his TV licence in any of the films. You might be onto something here.

 

[8ball]

I've just looked at the fmotl website - it's all just words - where's the free stuff?
I want a newsletter and a t-shirt and a mug and some pens.

 

[Whtstruistru]

Here are two books (pdf) study them carefully......
Also lawful rebellion into Google loads on there
I hope they enlighten you all

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

To all I say go to the fmotl website!! Or read the book entitled 'Freedom is more than a seven letter word' I was sceptical about this but have been proven by my own experiences!! First read up and then judge someone for their views/beliefs!!
Quote " You are a prisoner Neo! Your prison has no bars! It is a prison for your mind!"

Oh just fuck off already.