untethered
For industry & decency
It's a funny kind of freedom that cuts down the English language just so that one can prevail in a fleeting forum "debate".
freedom or security...
- Thread starter fela fan
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It's a funny kind of freedom that cuts down the English language just so that one can prevail in a fleeting forum "debate".
untethered
For industry & decency
Are you ragging me?
Reign in thy ego butchers. The under-visited philosophy forum on urban75 hardly equates to the 'whole country'!
And in any case, if you weren't watching carefully, i'm trying to find out if this forum is dead permanently, or whether it just needs a load of interesting topics to get it alive. It's an experiment mate.
No, not really.
Your freedoms, like your 'rights', are granted and protected by others more powerful than you. As they give, so can they take away.
You're free to the extent that you're permitted to be free.
What freedoms do you have that can't be taken from you?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Nah, I just want some kind of generic, unspecified freedom.
Oh no mate. You have different views on what freedom is. That's why i defined it in my OP for the sake of the parameters of this debate. After all, philosophy depends entirely on language and that the interlocutors are using the same definitions in their particular debate.
My freedom is nothing to do with anybody else. I do notice however that you use the word 'freedoms'. And that is a substantially different concept. Maybe you should start your own thread on it and help revive this forum...
Exactly, freedom is taking responsibility for our own actions. The moment we impose on others, and whatever the external consequence is, the internal consequence is that we have lost our freedom.
You're talking about intellectual freedom? Freedom of speech? Freedom to think particular thoughts?
They can't control our thoughts as yet, but they're working on it.
What 'freedom' do you have that can't be taken away?
Wherever did you get this idea?
untethered
For industry & decency
Post reported.
So we lose our freedom by taking away the freedom of others? Are you sure you've thought this through?
Unfortunately i shall soon have to disobey your order due to need for sleep. I can last a bit longer though. But, in any case, being a free man most of the time, and in particular now, your pronouncements have no effect over me. I accept or refuse according to my own responsibilities. You're command belongs more to the security than the freedom my OP referred to.
And that's an interesting point. Just about the whole debate has centred around the 'freedom' half of my OP, and almost none on the 'security' half.
Wonder why...!
The two are inextricably linked. Have you not grasped this yet? Freedom cannot survive without mechanisms that guarantee it.
As it happens mate, for years now. It's about the most interesting thing i can find to contemplate over: freedom, security, and control. War or peace depends on it all.
I'm particularly interested in those that have power and abuse it. I declare they have no freedom, according to my OP definition of course.
If i 'imprison' you in any way, then i'm doing so from an unfree position. I imprison myself by imprisoning you or anybody else.
untethered
For industry & decency
Our ancestors fought so that we could live in the way that they did and enjoy their freedoms.
Instead, we got colour television, the council tax and the EU.
All that said, I'd still rather be here than in Germany.
Instead, we got colour television, the council tax and the EU.
All that said, I'd still rather be here than in Germany.
I totally disagree. Nothing external to me has any influence on my own personal freedom. It is all internally provided for.
I believe freedom and security to be at the opposite ends of a cline. In any other way they are totally non-linked.
I believe britain has fucked up by confusing security with freedom in recent years. The more you chase security, the more you won't find it. You will always be chasing your own tail.
I did define it in the OP, and asked for ideas on the comparison between the two. However, everyone took up on the freedom and left the security bit behind. You have belatedly linked them back up together, even if i totally disagree with you.
He's fallen into a common trap among people who do not think things through clearly.
It goes something like this:
What is freedom? It must be something good. I like it when people aren't dependent on other people and when they don't impose themselves on others too. That is a good thing. Freedom is a good thing. Therefore freedom is when people aren't dependent on other people and when they don't impose themselves on others too.
untethered
For industry & decency
Funnily enough my understanding is that german people have more freedom than british people, as a whole that is.
untethered
For industry & decency
I suppose it's great if you value freedom to be German more than freedom to be British. Not my cup of tea at all, if it's all the same to you.
Or indeed, even if it isn't.
This of course is a considerably long way from the OP. But there you go. As you wish, but wouldn't it be better starting your own thread on such concepts as you write here? It really has gone so outside the parameters of the debate as outlined in the OP.
I value freedom to be human thank you.
Crispy
The following psytrance is baṉned: All
But noone exists in a vacuum. Every action you take affects people, however indirectly. Be responsible for your actions, yes, but don't pretend that those actions don't have consequences outisde your own experience.
Security is the balance between my freedom and yours. It's an expectaion and a guarantee that the extent of my freedom will not become an excessive limit on yours.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
So it's possible to have national genes, but not a nationality based concept of freedom?
