freedom or security...

[fela fan]

for the purposes of this thread, i define freedom as the ability to take responsibility for one's own actions and life.

Security, on the other hand, is the situation where one attempts to avoid the imposition by others on one's own life. It is usually associated with avoiding violence on oneself.

Freedom is about how one conducts oneself, whereas security is how one hopes to avoid others conducting themselves upon them. Or, in other words, freedom is in our own personal control, related to being independent; whereas security depends on others, leaving us dependent.

Which do posters value the more?

 

[girasol]

bit of both

 

[kyser_soze]

Neither and both! Just to clarify, by security you mean relying on others not to interfere (negatively one presumes, since security usually means protection in some way) in my life, or what?

 

[danny la rouge]

If anyone thinks they can manage without co-operation with others, they're welcome to try.

 

[Santino]

Are you defining freedom negatively, i.e. the absence of obstacles, or positively, i.e. the presence of options and ability?

 

[kyser_soze]

fela has a lone wolf thing going on, where he thinks that relying on anyone else for anything is some kind of negative dependency...

 

[butchersapron]

He's defining it in terms of 'ability' apparently. Which is odd.

 

[Crispy]

The day other people don't affect my life and vice versa is the day I stop being human.

 

[Hi-ASL]

for the purposes of this thread, i define freedom as the ability to take responsibility for one's own actions and life.

How can you retain the ability in the event of someone more powerful than you attempting to take it away?

 

[kyser_soze]

No doubt ff is also making the assumption that all basic needs have been met, presumably by some kind of osmotic method of eating and DIY housebuilding...

 

[fela fan]

fela has a lone wolf thing going on, where he thinks that relying on anyone else for anything is some kind of negative dependency...

No i don't. And no i'm not.

 

[kyser_soze]

Ah, so on previous threads where you've stated outright that dependence on others is a negative thing, you don't think that anymore?

 

[danny la rouge]

fela has a lone wolf thing going on, where he thinks that relying on anyone else for anything is some kind of negative dependency...

I have nothing against individualist hermits. I think they're deluded, but if they live in a cave on onions and the occasional rabbit, by definition they're doing me no harm.

 

[fela fan]

How can you retain the ability in the event of someone more powerful than you attempting to take it away?

Good question.

People can only have power over me if i allow them.

I do pretty well in my life in that non-permission... mainly because i live according to the filosofy that no-one is more powerful than me, and i more than them.

So anyone attempting to steal my power cannot. I don't have any to steal from!

 

[fela fan]

The day other people don't affect my life and vice versa is the day I stop being human.

Hardly the choice the OP was asking you to take though is it crispy?

 

[Santino]

People can only have power over me if i allow them.

That'll be why so many people are in prison.

 

[fela fan]

Ah, so on previous threads where you've stated outright that dependence on others is a negative thing, you don't think that anymore?

All i'm going to say here is, stick to the thread, stick to the points being debated, and stop bringing me into it.

 

[dylanredefined]

Both are limited if you want to live in a decent society .Why do you beleive they are mutually exclusive ?
No one want to get mugged or blown up by terrorists so criminals and terrorists need to be stoped .One of the best way of deterring them is check points and random searches .Unfortunatly to start with they reassure the public soon seen as a inconvience .
I would like to own an automatic pistol .I have fascination with guns and like shooting .My government says civilians cant own such weapons .My freedom may be impingined but then others freedom to live free of morons playing with pistols is perserved .

 

[fela fan]

That'll be why so many people are in prison.

yeah, but alex, if you zoom over to the burma thread in world politics and look at the last page you will see how a man who had been jailed for political views was just released after 19 years. He remained adamant upon his release he would continue to fight for his views. One day later he was re-arrested.

Who has the freedom, him, or his jailers?

 

[kyser_soze]

All i'm going to say here is, stick to the thread, stick to the points being debated, and stop bringing me into it.

#

I'd love to ff, but your defintions in the OP are vague and ill-defined, and given that you're using words like dependence and ability in relation to the OP, grounding where you stand on both of those is inherently required to form a good argument.

 

[untethered]

People can only have power over me if i allow them.

I do pretty well in my life in that non-permission... mainly because i live according to the filosofy that no-one is more powerful than me, and i more than them.

So anyone attempting to steal my power cannot. I don't have any to steal from!

Says the man who lives in a country where you can get locked up for a decade for criticising the king.

 

[Hi-ASL]

Good question.

People can only have power over me if i allow them.

I do pretty well in my life in that non-permission... mainly because i live according to the filosofy that no-one is more powerful than me, and i more than them.

So anyone attempting to steal my power cannot. I don't have any to steal from!

Let's take a simple example: you're walking down a street and somebody approaches you with a knife and asks you nicely for your wallet. There's a police car over the road but the occupants have waddled into a shop to buy donuts.

Oh, fela fan: whatever will you do?

((((fela fan))))

 

[fela fan]

No doubt ff is also making the assumption that all basic needs have been met, presumably by some kind of osmotic method of eating and DIY housebuilding...

Sounds more like your assumption kyser.

Stick to the debate and keep your faulty assumptions to yourself.

 

[untethered]

Who has the freedom, him, or his jailers?

His jailers have some degree of freedom to whether they want to continue in that line of work, whereas he doesn't have the freedom to walk out of jail just because he's changed his mind.

 

[Crispy]

Which do posters value the more?

Security, because without it, freedom is impossible. With it, freedom is limited but possible.

 

[fela fan]

Let's take a simple example: you're walking down a street and somebody approaches you with a knife and asks you nicely for your wallet. There's a police car over the road but the occupants have waddled into a shop to buy donuts.

Oh, fela fan: whatever will you do?

((((fela fan))))

two things come to mind. Firstly give em the money out of the wallet, but not the wallet. Secondly i'll have nothing to do with the police.

 

[fela fan]

His jailers have some degree of freedom to whether they want to continue in that line of work, whereas he doesn't have the freedom to walk out of jail just because he's changed his mind.

Is freedom in the mind and heart, or in the space you occupy?

 

[untethered]

Is freedom in the mind and heart, or in the space you occupy?

In the example you gave, the jailers have both and the prisoner has only one.

I think I know which situation I'd rather be in.

 

[untethered]

two things come to mind. Firstly give em the money out of the wallet, but not the wallet. Secondly i'll have nothing to do with the police.

These are the kind of muggers that will stab you after they've got your cash, just for fun.

 

[kyser_soze]

Sounds more like your assumption kyser.

Stick to the debate and keep your faulty assumptions to yourself.

OK.

In order to eat I need to be secure, to have security, in the knowledge that those responsible for growing, processing and distributing food all do their job correctly. I have a limited degree of freedom to grow my own food, but this is dependent on my having access to land, or at least somewhere I can grow vegetables, husband animals etc.

So from first point, in order to enjoy other freedoms I have to have a secure food supply. This can be extended to provision of housing and energy.

So there you go - in order to have freedom to do some things, I am reliant on the security of the work of others.