Fatalities and critical injuries at Asake concert crush at the Brixton Academy

[Jimmy Don't]

Used to be a chap called Ray when i went, but this was post millennium. I believe Lenny McLean ran the doors 'back in the day'.

Yeah, may still have been early 90s. Now I think of it, the hardest kid at my school was on the door at Lazerdrome in Peckham when we were in sixth form and they deffo did the unoffcial entry deal, along with selling back drugs from dealers they'd nabbed.

 

[teuchter]

This does not excuse the behaviour of the crowd outside, who whether they had tickets or not, still thought it would be fine to rush the doors and consequently trample people to death.

It just doesn't make sense to talk about "the crowd" as some sort of entity that can or can't be excused, or is capable of "thinking it would be fine".

In any case it doesn't seem as simple as a crowd outside rushing the doors, because where it really seems to have gone wrong is when an incoming crowd met a crowd being ushered out of the venue.

If these allegations against the security company are true, then anyone looking for a target of blame surely ought to be looking at the security company rather than "the crowd".

Unlike the crowd, or any individual in the crowd, the security company was put in, and accepted, a position of responsibility. Their job is to control things like the numbers of people that get in. They can reasonably be expected to understand the consequences of certain actions - like choosing to ignore corrupt practices that mean a venue is very likely to become overcrowded. They are employed and paid to understand this.

This is totally different to a concert-goer who tries to push their way to the front. Reasonably expectations about what they could understand about the consequences of their actions are totally different.

I wonder how many of those pushing to get in, had been sold fake tickets by bouncers. It's not too hard to imagine that if you'd just handed over a bunch of cash to a bouncer, and been told you would be ushered through, and then you'd seen the same security team preventing people from getting in, you might feel angry. That's not to "excuse" anything but I would ask who it is that has allowed this situation to arise.

 

[TopCat]

I can't remember what the big head doorman was called, but he would do a deal where a group of you got in for a cash price cheaper than the door tax, so would be bound increase numbers. No searches on the fire exit route in either, so ripe for drugs and weapons to get in.

Lenny McLean had that door for a long time.

 

[Torpid Scorpion]

Guardian has this on the bribery this morning. Their source claims it’s rampant at venues the security company manages, and that it was well known to management.

Brixton Academy security guards alleged to have routinely taken bribes

After a fatal crowd crush at the London venue in December, the BBC has spoken to a guard who says hundreds were let in for cash

www.theguardian.com

 

[nick]

On assumption of sufficient evidence to meet the burden of proof, surely there is a need to prosecute for the (much underused) crime of Corporate Manslaughter?.
(as mentioned by Felonius up thread)

 

[DaveCinzano]

Have a wade

Corporate Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

 

[CH1]

Guardian has this on the bribery this morning. Their source claims it’s rampant at venues the security company manages, and that it was well known to management.

Brixton Academy security guards alleged to have routinely taken bribes

After a fatal crowd crush at the London venue in December, the BBC has spoken to a guard who says hundreds were let in for cash

www.theguardian.com

This is a précied transcript of BBC Radio 4 - File on 4, Catastrophe at the Academy

 

[edcraw]

You’re still able to buy tickets for events that haven’t been rescheduled elsewhere apparently….

 

[Tolpuddle]

Easy to see how a few hundred people in the know about this, a sold out show, and the particular squeeze on space outside the academy can create a perfect storm. Also I can't imagine security wages to be all that great so that would obviously add to the incentive to make a few quid on the door.

I don't know how this can be better addressed but they need to better anticipate this stuff and sort it out. Strikes me that there are some artists who would be better suited to the O2 or Wembley where there is such a massive demand, but then again might this have been all avoided if the some members of the security firm weren't on the take.

If you read through the supporting paperwork supplied to the committee there is a letter (anonymised for publication) that also alleges the security were on the take.

 

[platinumsage]

I suppose an important question is whether the Academy management knew that the security company were doing this. Surely the fact that their venue was regularly over capacity should have been readily apparent to them.

 

[Rushy]

I suppose an important question is whether the Academy management knew that the security company were doing this. Surely the fact that their venue was regularly over capacity should have been readily apparent to them.

Possibly less apparent on account of the security company having provided little over half the number of security individuals they were required to...

 

[Tolpuddle]

I suppose an important question is whether the Academy management knew that the security company were doing this. Surely the fact that their venue was regularly over capacity should have been readily apparent to them.

Again, in the pack provided to the committee is a document setting out the licence conditions, and a matrix showing how the management complied with them. With hindsight they might have not wanted to submit that in it's current form as it may be that they weren't doing all they claim.

 

[editor]

<wrong thread, apols>

 

[TopCat]

<wrong thread, apols>

Right thread?

 

[Ms Ordinary]

Inquest today

Inquest into deaths at Brixton O2 could lead to criminal charges, court hears

The Metropolitan police are conducting a “vast and complex” investigation into the deaths of two people after a crush at a south London music venue last month, which will probably result in criminal charges, an inquest heard on Friday.

Speaking at the opening of the inquest at London Inner South coroner’s court into the deaths of Rebecca Ikumelo, 33, and Gaby Hutchinson, 23, DCI Nigel Penney, the Met’s senior investigating officer in the case, told the court: “It’s a vast and complicated process. It’s a huge investigation.”

He said police were tracking and tracing witnesses and were watching hundreds of hours of CCTV footage to work out how the crush occurred. “There are a lot of lines of inquiry to establish the facts and get to the truth,” he said.

Ikumelo had gone to watch the Nigerian Afrobeats star Asake perform at the O2 Academy Brixton on 15 December last year when she was caught up in a crush outside the venue, where Hutchinson was a security guard.

The senior coroner, Andrew Harris, asked if there could be homicide or related charges in connection with the two deaths.

Penney replied there was a “strong possibility of criminal charges” at a future point in the investigation. He requested permission for the inquest to be suspended while the criminal investigation is carried out.

Granting permission, Harris said: “It seems to me that if this is a complex criminal investigation, this matter is going to take some years.”

 

[CH1]

Inquest today

Inquest into deaths at Brixton O2 could lead to criminal charges, court hears

If the investigation could take several years, and the inquest cannot be completed until after this how long will the Academy remain shut? Maybe they will need to get the mothballs out. I wonder if they pay business rates on a venue which can't be used?

 

[Tulster218]

If the investigation could take several years, and the inquest cannot be completed until after this how long will the Academy remain shut? Maybe they will need to get the mothballs out. I wonder if they pay business rates on a venue which can't be used?

Business Rates for that venue are £372,500 per annum.
Summary valuation - Valuation Office Agency - GOV.UK

There is three months business rates relief for an empty building. A property is classed as empty if it is not being used and all stock and effects have been removed (apart from fixtures and fittings).

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

Business Rates for that venue are £372,500 per annum.
Summary valuation - Valuation Office Agency - GOV.UK

There is three months business rates relief for an empty building. A property is classed as empty if it is not being used and all stock and effects have been removed (apart from fixtures and fittings).

The Academy Group have deep pockets. They charge something stupid like £7.80 for a can of Carlsberg they tip into a cup, and there is no shortage of takers.

 

[DaphneM]

The Academy Group have deep pockets. They charge something stupid like £7.80 for a can of Carlsberg they tip into a cup, and there is no shortage of takers.

At the moment there are no takers though…

 

[jimbarkanoodle]

At the moment there are no takers though…

They own multiple venues across the country so there is still money coming into the coffers.

 

[Tulster218]

They own multiple venues across the country so there is still money coming into the coffers.

Yes. They made £2.4m profit last year on a turnover of £32m.

ACADEMY MUSIC GROUP LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

 

[DaphneM]

They own multiple venues across the country so there is still money coming into the coffers.

fair enough

 

[Pickman's model]

surprised David Clapson flounced when i for one would be interested to hear his take on developments over the past five weeks.

 

[twistedAM]

Yes. They made £2.4m profit last year on a turnover of £32m.

ACADEMY MUSIC GROUP LIMITED filing history - Find and update company information - GOV.UK

Live Nation own a 51% share of AMG and those figures are just probably operating profits. Then on top there'll be the profits that Live Nation make as promoters.

 

[swilky]

It just doesn't make sense to talk about "the crowd" as some sort of entity that can or can't be excused, or is capable of "thinking it would be fine".

In any case it doesn't seem as simple as a crowd outside rushing the doors, because where it really seems to have gone wrong is when an incoming crowd met a crowd being ushered out of the venue.

If these allegations against the security company are true, then anyone looking for a target of blame surely ought to be looking at the security company rather than "the crowd".

Unlike the crowd, or any individual in the crowd, the security company was put in, and accepted, a position of responsibility. Their job is to control things like the numbers of people that get in. They can reasonably be expected to understand the consequences of certain actions - like choosing to ignore corrupt practices that mean a venue is very likely to become overcrowded. They are employed and paid to understand this.

RUBBISH.

Why is it not that simple? Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you can't understand some simple cultural difference.
You've all answered the question without even realising - all admitting that the doors were run by shady doorman for decades and this never happened before - and his wasn't the issue here. The crowd were exclusively a single race - they "rushed" the door in an organised attempt to get in without paying and one black woman lamped a copper round the face (all on video, I've seen it) then accusing them of using excessive force. This is the same tactic they use when "rushing" Westfield or any other shopping centre, it's a well known "tactic" that is used in America and you can watch videos online - they do it in Detroit, Miami, NY - most recently at the Apple stores, hence the extra security you see over here - due to the copy cat criminal elements (again all on video). So yes, collectively you can refer to "the crowd" as people act in unison when grouped as a collective with a shared identity. This is why crowd dynamics are totally different from individuals actions and in this case - it's known that it was premeditated and organised online to enter without paying. No amount of security, good or bad, could have prevented this and the worst bit - we will all suffer the extra cost for future events and extra Policing and security will be part of their licence conditions. Why do we all have metal detectors at the major clubs (like Ministry of Sound, Fabric) It's not White people going around with machetes and knives around London, storming shopping malls and if it was evidence could be provided that there were no cultural consistencies at play here - but that's impossible and people need to accept it instead of over intellectualising the problem.

 

[ddraig]

EYEBROW!!

fuck off you racist cunt

 

[ddraig]

RUBBISH.

Why is it not that simple? Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you can't understand some simple cultural difference.
You've all answered the question without even realising - all admitting that the doors were run by shady doorman for decades and this never happened before - and his wasn't the issue here. The crowd were exclusively a single race - they "rushed" the door in an organised attempt to get in without paying and one black woman lamped a copper round the face (all on video, I've seen it) then accusing them of using excessive force. This is the same tactic they use when "rushing" Westfield or any other shopping centre, it's a well known "tactic" that is used in America and you can watch videos online - they do it in Detroit, Miami, NY - most recently at the Apple stores, hence the extra security you see over here - due to the copy cat criminal elements (again all on video). So yes, collectively you can refer to "the crowd" as people act in unison when grouped as a collective with a shared identity. This is why crowd dynamics are totally different from individuals actions and in this case - it's known that it was premeditated and organised online to enter without paying. No amount of security, good or bad, could have prevented this and the worst bit - we will all suffer the extra cost for future events and extra Policing and security will be part of their licence conditions. Why do we all have metal detectors at the major clubs (like Ministry of Sound, Fabric) It's not White people going around with machetes and knives around London, storming shopping malls and if it was evidence could be provided that there were no cultural consistencies at play here - but that's impossible and people need to accept it instead of over intellectualising the problem.

anything to say on knife crime in Glasgow, racist?

 

[andysays]

RUBBISH.

Why is it not that simple? Maybe it doesn't make sense to you because you can't understand some simple cultural difference.
You've all answered the question without even realising - all admitting that the doors were run by shady doorman for decades and this never happened before - and his wasn't the issue here. The crowd were exclusively a single race - they "rushed" the door in an organised attempt to get in without paying and one black woman lamped a copper round the face (all on video, I've seen it) then accusing them of using excessive force. This is the same tactic they use when "rushing" Westfield or any other shopping centre, it's a well known "tactic" that is used in America and you can watch videos online - they do it in Detroit, Miami, NY - most recently at the Apple stores, hence the extra security you see over here - due to the copy cat criminal elements (again all on video). So yes, collectively you can refer to "the crowd" as people act in unison when grouped as a collective with a shared identity. This is why crowd dynamics are totally different from individuals actions and in this case - it's known that it was premeditated and organised online to enter without paying. No amount of security, good or bad, could have prevented this and the worst bit - we will all suffer the extra cost for future events and extra Policing and security will be part of their licence conditions. Why do we all have metal detectors at the major clubs (like Ministry of Sound, Fabric) It's not White people going around with machetes and knives around London, storming shopping malls and if it was evidence could be provided that there were no cultural consistencies at play here - but that's impossible and people need to accept it instead of over intellectualising the problem.

Welcome to Urban.

I suspect your stay here will not be a long one...

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Wow. That went from zero to racist in record time.

 

[AverageJoe]

They lasted 35 minutes before the Banhammer fell.

Is that a record?