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Extinction Rebellion

But why has it's growth dynamic been so successful. Why are movements built on "better" principles so lacklustre?
tbh it's difficult to answer your first question, as although its initial growth was spectacular, it's not obvious whether its (british) growth has continued, or what the turnover of adherents is. are its numbers increasing or are they treading water? while it is astonishing that a movement could blossom out of nowhere, i am yet to be persuaded that this is a hardy perennial. what seems to me to have happened is that it has struck a chord as the 'make poverty history' campaign of 2005 struck a chord with so many people. however, looking at the people who make up the bulk of xr's street presence, they seem a) white and b) middle class. there also seems to be a streak of new age thinking running through the movement, with people pictured yesterday meditating on one of the bridges. i wonder whether xr as it is has reached its apogee and changes might have to be made if it is to grow and become resilient.

one thing which is a general feature of anarchist and socialist protests is movement. people march through the streets, whether from a to b on a route agreed with the police or as a wandering mob or mass. the advantages possessed by people out for one of the may days (after 2000) or for the later student protests was were their movement and their unpredictability. being static removes the ability of protesters to retain the initiative, and leaves control of events largely with the police: xr remain where they are at the pleasure of the police. this surrenders the great advantages people who were out at j18, on some of the maydays and on the student protests enjoyed. but xr have made two rods for their own backs. on the one hand their stated aim is to change government policy, while on the other they want to act in way which they think will retain public confidence. I don't think they can have it both ways, either they put on a serious and sustained campaign of civil disobedience which encompasses not only blocking streets and bridges but non-cooperation with the state and recognises that push may well come to shove, or they're an irritant to government and the police and of no real use in forcing change any more than the occasional one-day strike really furthers workers' interests.

as this is a constructed movement, as opposed to campaigns which have developed organically, i suspect it contains the seeds of its own destruction as it tries to be so many things to so many people. without a clear political direction or tendency i feel it is built on sand and will splinter fairly easily. xr is currently bright and shiny but unless they do something new soon they will soon be as lacklustre as other movements.
 
They have not just appeared. This was built up over decades. From before Newbury to RTS, onto Climate Camps, Green Gatherings, Occupy etc.
i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.
 
i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.
Yes indeed. However. A lot of the people are the same throughout. Changed their approaches. Learned. Still absolutely wedded to non violence.
 
i appreciate the genealogy you draw, but the groups you mention encompassed a great diversity of tactics while xr seem to have only one. i'm not saying getting a load of people together and blocking shit is in itself bad, but it's pretty useless if there aren't an array of other things being done.
Givinv leeway to new groups to do their own actions will surely diversify tactics.
 
Yes indeed. However. A lot of the people are the same throughout. Changed their approaches. Learned. Still absolutely wedded to non violence.
there's the problem, because non-violence like this only allows the protests to exist while the police are willing to let it go ahead. tweaking their tactics, like using a sort of glue which is immune to acetone or attaching themselves to different things, might improve what for want of a better term i'll describe as their operational efficiency. while nv might work for the people who've a long and proud record in this area, i'm not sure whether it attracts or deters other, new, people from becoming involved
 
..while nv might work for the people who've a long and proud record in this area, i'm not sure whether it attracts or deters other, new, people from becoming involved
Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.
 
Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent. Any deviation from that will see the group expressly outlawed and a large escalation in government rhetoric, organised violence and suppression.
please don't post such arrant rubbish. you don't add anything with your comments here, rather you betray a sorry ignorance. were anti-poll tax groups outlawed? or anti-fascist groups? class war with the famous 'keep it spikey' leaflet, they were never 'expressly outlawed'. i don't suppose you can name a single popular protest movement which has been expressly outlawed in the country on the basis of its position on violence.

my point's quite simple. xr has attracted a number of people at least partly because of their position on violence. has it deterred others from joining? i suspect it has. it also lays the ground for a potential split because nothing they have done thus far seems to have changed the government's position on the matter one iota.
 
Seems a bit divorced from reality. Any popular protest movement must be avowedly non violent.

That's just not true though.

It might be the case right here, right now. But in other times and other places it's just not the case.

So, as the second part of your posts says the question of non-violence is a practical one subject to change. To be considered, discussed and developed alongside other matters of strategy and tactics.
 
anti-poll tax groups outlawed? or anti-fascist groups? class war with the famous 'keep it spikey' leaflet,
Poll tax protest was much more a coming together of different groups (trade union, political, religious, local) on the one topic. Anti fascist groups are smaller and more reactive than XR. Class war? Aren't they just for comedy relief?

It might be the case right here, right now. But in other times and other places it's just not the case.
I am talking about the right here, right now.
 
And Johnson comes out with
“uncooperative crusties in hemp smelling bivouacs”. :facepalm:

Yeah, the language used isn't very original. But still, a lot of cuntish trolling from him

Johnson listed issues on which he claimed Thatcher was right, including her approach to “bring about … the end of apartheid”. According to an account of his comments briefed out by No 10 on Monday evening, he said: “I hope that when we go out from this place tonight and we are waylaid by importunate nose-ringed climate change protesters we remind them that [Thatcher] was also right about greenhouse gases.

“And she took it seriously long before Greta Thunberg. And the best thing possible for the education of the denizens of the heaving hemp-smelling bivouacs that now litter Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park, the best thing would be for them to stop blocking the traffic and buy a copy of Charles’s magnificent book so that they can learn about a true feminist, green and revolutionary who changed the world for the better.


Extinction Rebellion: Johnson calls climate crisis activists 'uncooperative crusties'

Ugh.
 
But any specific one of the various groups protesting against the poll tax could have been outlawed with the overall protests unchanged.
by no means. the proscription of an organisation, which is what you're suggesting, would have made a difference to the political context: it took many years for the uda to be proscribed yet you're saying that one hint of supporting the notion of street fighting and a group would be cast into the legal outer darkness. you're talking bollocks. if e.g camden stop the poll tax, one of whose posters advocated dropping heavy objects on bailiffs, had been proscribed other anti-poll tax groups would - without doubt - have raised the ante.
 
To put it another way.

If the situation is as severe, and as urgent, as XR's rhetoric proclaims then violence is absolutely and utterly justified.

If it's what will work most quickly and completely.

If that is the case then sticking to a principle of non-violence on individual moral grounds is equally absolutely and utterly unjustified.

So, it's the "if" that needs examining. The where, when and how.
 
What kind of violence are you going to see? What would you expect that violence to achieve? I suspect you just want a bit of armchair entertainment.
 
What kind of violence are you going to see? What would you expect that violence to achieve?

If, as XR appear to be saying, we're pretty much fighting against the deaths of billions, mass extinctions, the end of humanity and the death of the planet...and it's happening right now....then pretty much anything is justified in the face of that.

I don't happen to believe that actually is what we are facing though. But XR are creating a scenario where pretty much anything is morally preferable to allowing things to continue as they are.
 
If, as XR appear to be saying, we're pretty much fighting against the deaths of billions, mass extinctions, the end of humanity and the death of the planet...and it's happening right now....then pretty much anything is justified in the face of that.

I don't happen to believe that actually is what we are facing though. But XR are creating a scenario where pretty much anything is morally preferable to allowing things to continue as they are.
You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.
 
You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.
perhaps you could enumerate these 'lots of reasons'

i am intrigued that you say there are 'always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action', you're sounding rather positive about violence now.
 
perhaps you could enumerate these 'lots of reasons'

i am intrigued that you say there are 'always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action', you're sounding rather positive about violence now.
Do I want to explain in detail something to which you are already well set to dispute and disagree with? I don't have the time and interest to unpick the assumptions and conflations you've made.

Things that are not the same thing:

- XR non violent strategy
- the use of violence
- police response locally
- government response
- my personal views and politics

You've merged some of these in your comments. I'll leave you to work out which.
 
Do I want to explain in detail something to which you are already well set to dispute and disagree with? I don't have the time and interest to unpick the assumptions and conflations you've made.

Things that are not the same thing:

- XR non violent strategy
- the use of violence
- police response locally
- government response
- my personal views and politics

You've merged some of these in your comments. I'll leave you to work out which.
what are iyo these 'lots of reasons'?
 
You're saying that if it's critical then violence is the best approach. I would say that while there are always short cuts that can be achieved with violent or destructive action, at this stage I think XR are doing the right thing in keeping it avowedly non violent for lots of reasons.

No. I'm saying that if its critical - both in terms of severity and urgency - then whatever wins most quickly and completely is the best approach. I don't know whether that's with violence or not. But if these are the ground upon which we are rebelling (not protesting, rebelling) then you cannot morally or practically or logically preemptively rule out the use of violence on our part.
 
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